O Scale Locomotive Guide: Mountains & Mohawks

Very interesting, and a loco wheel arrangement I will buy.  Didn't Third Rail do one

for the Rio Grande, or was that a Northern, the next wheel arrangement I hope you

explore.  Too bad the U.P. Mountains with Vanderbilt tenders didn't make it into production.

More great info. Thanks again for taking all the time to put these together and post here for us.

3rd Rail did a "water buffalo" that D&RGW also owned.  This class of locomotive was owned by N&W, W&LE, and D&RGW:

Somebody did a two rail version of the M-78, I think it was Berlyn locomotive works.

Regards,

Jerry

Ted,

Nice compilation.  Thanks.

George

The 3rd Rail N&W K2a.

Thank you Ted

I do appreciate all this information you give us.

Clem k

Excellent as always!  I really enjoy these posts.

You're correct-the MTH Union Pacific Mountains are the ones that got away.  I've spent a lot of time looking at the catalog pictures wishing they would've been produced.  

Hopefully we'll see them again someday.

Ted, thanks again for a fine presentation. Add to your list the 3rd Rail NYC L3b Mohawk. I think it was made with at least two cab numbers.

Pete

Hot digs! Mountains!

Here is a Lionel M1a on the left. I had two at one time, then sold them off. I never liked the massive lubricator linkage on these, it would have been nicer just to leave them off. They had really nice sounds at the time, especially after correcting the chuff rate. I believe these were one of the first few models with the dual Fat Boy speakers.

And here is a 3rd Rail M1a sitting on my old turntable. I need to unpack this beast and get it weathered up soon. This had factory EOB and RS4. I think I put the Lionel M1a ROM in it a couple years ago.

Thanks everybody for all the posts, especially the photos.

Norm

Beautiful work as always!   Thanks so much for adding to this discussion and sharing your M1a photos with us.

Bob

I love the SP Mountain.  I believe Sunset made MT-4 and MT-5 models.  Can you tell us the story of building your SP Mountain?

Norton

Thanks for the photos of the Sunset L3b.  Along with Norms M-1a we now have photos of PRR and NYC 4-8-2s from 3 rail's most prolific brass importer.

Jim and Jerry

Thanks to both of you for posting photos of the Sunset models of the K2a and K3.  Together they are a good illustration of a good fast freight and passenger locomotive and a mountain with mikado like running gear.

The K2s were USRA heavies.  Like the other USRA locomotives, they were well designed for their intended service.  With 69' drivers and the main rod on the second axle they were well balanced for high speeds by the standards of the day.  They were fast enough to hold down passenger assignments into the 40s and 50s and merit streamlining to look like a J.

The K3s, even though the N&W built them later, were something of a throwback to some of the pre-USRA designs with 63" drivers and a longer and heavier main rods connected to the third axle.  As I understand it, they had a reputation for being hard on track due to poor balancing for high speeds and that the N&W was happy to sell them when other roads were power short during WWII.

Ted - I am always delighted when someone shows interest in my models.  Both the Daylight and this one are from Lobaugh kits.  The Lobaugh Mountains are fairly rare, produced for perhaps three years before WWII, I think they were too expensive for the average 1938 model railroader - $195 for a finished locomotive, and over $100 for a kit.

Well done, Ted.......thank you so much!

Peter

Amazing post, thanks so much.  I enjoy reading about the history of the real locos.  It would be nice if Lionel included specifics of dates of service on a class of locos and specific engine numbers with their product packaging.  I don't know if the typical product is a fictional number and road name or always a representation of an actual historical loco.  Either way, inclusion of historical info with the product would be interesting.  Anyone aware of a nice frameable poster that shows information such as the original poster provided?  Thanks

A recent Mohawk video I did:

.....and another.......

Peter

I am always delighted when someone shows interest in my models.  Both the Daylight and this one are from Lobaugh kits.  The Lobaugh Mountains are fairly rare, produced for perhaps three years before WWII, I think they were too expensive for the average 1938 model railroader - $195 for a finished locomotive, and over $100 for a kit.

Bob

I always like seeing your models.  There are historically interesting and some of them, like the C&NW 2-8-4, hit a niche where nothing else is available.  Any background you might like to share on prototype or model SP mountains would be appreciated.

Peter

Thanks for posting the L2 Videos.  Those Mohawks are really haulin'!  They remind me of a David P. Morgan photo essay.

I enjoy reading about the history of the real locos.  It would be nice if Lionel included specifics of dates of service on a class of locos and specific engine numbers with their product packaging.

Garrett

You might enjoy this Lionel blog post from 2013.

http://lionelllc.wordpress.com...york-central-mohawk/

Here's a vid of the 3rd Rail M1a on my old layout. If you look closely as it comes off the turntable you can see that 3rd Rail did a nice job modeling the tailbeams, something that is often neglected on most diecast models:

Tailbeams are not neglected - they are not installed, because if they were, curves would have to be tripled in radius.  Same with scale cylinder blocks and pilot trucks.

Ted - I have a soft spot for Mountains, but as you can see, there is little interest in these older 2-rail models.  I do have a bunch of them - I will share photos and keep it brief.  This one is scratchbuilt.  It took three tries to get the boiler contour correct.  

I have a soft spot for Mountains, but as you can see, there is little interest in these older 2-rail models.

Bob

I don't know about little interest.  We have had nearly 500 views of this thread over the weekend.  Folks seem to like knowing not only what models have been made but knowing more about the prototype.  I believe Sunset has produced models of the SP MT-4 and MT-5.  Any SP prototype info you have that went into your models might well be appreciated by other SP fans and those looking for the Sunset models.

Norm

Thanks for posting the video.  I appreciate seeing more of your Pennsy power from Sunset.  Unfortunately it is more difficult to find out what Sunset has made (compared to Lionel and MTH) so your photos and videos are extra helpful in addition to being fun just to look at.  

Anyone aware of a nice frameable poster that shows information such as the original poster provided?

Garrett

I don't know of such a poster but it is an interesting idea.  I'll suggest that to a few people at York this spring.

When it comes to Permier and Standard O steam both MTH and Lionel are pretty good these days about using prototypical road numbers.  If you have a question about a specific model the 3rs forum is a very good place to ask.

I guess I did get a couple of "likes" - but I realize that I am not on a 2-rail forum, and that folks here are more interested in the die cast offerings.  They (the new 3-rail models) are indeed stunning - I have a couple of Lionel scale models that rival anything available on the 2-rail market.

I have tons of history, but let me direct you to the definitive book on SP Mountains - Bob Church has done such superb work.  If you like SP steam, Signature Press has all of Church's books, and they are simply complete references.

Here is one of my very first - it is a cast bronze All Nation Mountain, re-gauged for 4'6" track, with a wood block tender.  The drivers are Lobaugh cast iron.

Here is another All-Nation, this time with Lobaugh tender, in 5' gauge.  Chicago's Hobbyland sold this one to me as a kit for $35.  Thanks, Rich.

The Southern Ts-1 which conquered the Saluda Mountain 4.7% grade regularly.

I was not aware the Southern ever painted their Mountain class locomotives in the passenger green & gold colors.

Having long eschewed Berkshires as "eastern" locos, and favored Mountains as

"western" locos, it is always interesting to read these postings and find it reinforced

that loco wheel arrangement stereptypes, such as Pacifics just for passenger, did not apply in the prototypical world.  Paint job not withstanding, the Southern did not operate its Mountains in the Rockies, and was, decidedly, a (south) eastern RR.

Hot: me neither, but here is some evidence:

http://southern.railfan.net/im...eam/482/sou1452.html

A good photo, and it shows the short tender.

WOW!  Thanks. That sure is a fine looking locomotive.

Ted, this is great information!   Yes, you are correct that 3rd Rail made the SP MT-4 and MT-5.  The MT-4 was available in both black and the partial Daylight versions, while the MT-5 was only available in black.  All models had the skyline casings but for some reason only the MT-5 received the graphite painted smoke box.  

Here are the MT-4's.   I'm still hunting for a MT-5.  

I'm also including a photo of 3rd Rails B&O T-4a, which isn't seen often.  I found mine out of pure luck.  

Thanks for sharing the info!

Nick

I was not aware the Southern ever painted their Mountain class locomotives in the passenger green & gold colors.

me neither, but here is some evidence

Evidence?  I'd say that is proof! 

Those Lionel Southern Ts-1s sure look nice.  I wasn't even aware that Lionel had done a USRA light Mountain until I was researching this thread.  They do seem to be available on ebay with some regularity and would be good candidates for an electronics upgrade. 

With USRA Mountains available from Lionel, I might have to upgrade my short line's

motive power...although not sure I can justify it, as it is more of a Consolidation and

Ten Wheeler road.  Will have to take a look at those, anyway.   Wonder what prototype roads beyond Southern and New Haven used the USRA Mountain?  USRA usually means

a number of raods....

Wonder no more, and capture the MRR Cyclopedia.  It will tell you what roads used them.

Also, Google is your friend.

Pete

Thanks...I see the MoPac received some of them...which is good enough for me.  I

will bet some, later in life, wound up on shortlines, such as some of those in the

south, that, during WWII, acquired some imprssive power that looked too big for

their needs.

The B&O T4 Mountains were originally built for the Boston & Maine by Baldwin and were the largest Mountains ever made. 

A little T3 info;

Most B&O fans know that the railroad always carried a lot of debt and was usually short on cash. So when WWII started the B&O was stuck with a set of steamers that were close to 20 years old. We are talking about P7s, Q4s, and S1 Big Sixes. Engines such as the E27 Consolidations, EL 2-8-8-0s, Q1, Q7, Q3 Mikados, and P1-P5 Pacifics, were at least 5 years older than that. The B&O already knew that diesels were the way to go but 4 ABBA sets of FTs were all they were going to get. And there was a need for engines with better steaming capacity for fast freights in the Midwest, and express service over the West End to Grafton and Sand patch to Pittsburgh.

So once the B&O established that souped-up Q4s with 70 inch drivers were not going to cut it in Ohio and Indiana, they decided on the home built option to meet their need. Everyone that has B&O Power can see just what the B&O did to make a T3. Boiler shells from pre WWI P1 and Q1 engines were used as a starting point. A new boiler course was added to make the engine longer. All T3s had every modern appliance available in the last full decade of steam. These included Worthington Type SA feedwater heater pumps, B&O Type R superheaters, combustion chambers, siphons, circulators, lateral motion devices, Alco G-1 reverse gear, and Mod H.T. stokers. All had single guides and Baker valve gear. All of the T3s were built with new cast steel frames with integral cast cylinders from General Steel Casting Corp. All had 27x32 inch cylinders, 70 inch drivers, 65,100 pounds of tractive effort, 230lbs psi, and a cylinder horsepower of 2990. They had Westinghouse air-signal whistles and steam-heat lines. So even those these were classed as rebuilds, they were over 90% new. They were the LAST engines built at the Mt.Clare shops in Baltimore and the LAST 4-8-2s built in the US!

The first group, class T3, were built beginning in late 1942. Engines 5555-5557 were the first 3 engines completed before the New Year. Engines 5558-5563 were built in 1943. These engines all had friction bearings on all axles. They were also built with Vanderbilt tenders that had 4 wheel trucks and carried 15,000 gallons of water and 26 tons of coal. One T3a engine was built in 1943 and it had roller bearings on all axles. Here is a shot of how the original engine and tender looked.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5565amm.jpg

Engines in the T3b series included 5565-5567, built in 1943, engines 5568-5574, built in 1944, engines 5575-5581 built in 1945, and engines 5582-5584 built in 1946. All had friction bearings on all axles. And all of these engines were suppose to have new large rectangular tenders that carried 20,000 gallons and 25 tons. But this isn’t the only tender mystery. Here is the way most of the T3bs looked, most of the time.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5569s.jpg

Finally, the last group of T3cs, numbers 5584-5591 built in 1947, and numbers 5592-5594 were completed in 1948. The only difference on these engines is that they had roller bearings on all axles except the drivers. They all looked basically like 5569 pictured above.

These were the engines that the B&O used to compete with the NKP Berks on the Akron and Chicago Divisions. Some of these were still in storage as late as 1961. Besides the EM-1, these were the most modern steamers the B&O ever ran.

David Morgan had some interesting things to say about the T3 in the "In Search of Steam, vol 3: 1955, issue of Classic Trains, a special edition mentioned the T3. He wrote,

"B&O's T3 is an interesting machine. the road has 40 of them, all rebuilt at Mount Clare Shops, Baltimore, during 1942-1948 from older 4-6-2s and 2-8-2's. As Hasting's photos indicate, a T3 looks better coming at you than broadside. For improved steaming and accommodation of larger drivers and a 4-wheel guide truck, the old boilers were lengthened. This upset the natural contour of the barrel and made of the T3 - from sandbox forward, an anemic looking animal indeed. All of which may be excused on grounds that the T3 was a child of war. She was born when the War Production board sliced a diesel order from 23 to 9 locomotives, and she was a bargain. To shop the Mikes would have cost $15,000 each and increased the gross tractive effort by zero. The rebuilds cost $64,000 each and increased cylinder horsepower from 2128 to 2990. Equivalent new power would have cost $150,000 apiece.

And a T3 will perform. I used to admire sitting in the dome of The Capitol on evenings when a T3 would doublehead with the diesel units out of Cumberland and up Sand Patch. They appeared to be racy, tireless performers...And nothing we saw at Willard abused that notion".

"Grafton"?  I was there for some forgotten reason on the way to somewhere?, and

blundered on a railyard, that still had a turntable and a roundhouse, which I climbed

up above and photographed.  This set directly across the street and down a hill from

a town and a building where "Mother's Day" was first started?  (as I remember it, if

this is the right place?)  No chance that railyard, turntable, and round house are still

there? It was the best surviving example of a standard gauge steam complex I had stumbled on. That had to be over a decade, probably longer, ago.

I found some old footage of the Lionel M1a running on my old layout around 2007 or maybe earlier. This one was renumbered and upgraded to EOB drop in. I also hopped up the smoke unit and installed TAS' old Puff n Chuff board. I still dig the boom-boom chuff but don't care for running smoke anymore.

Grafton is still there and it is the birthplace of Mother's Day. I'd like to hear how you ended up in WV someday Colorado, because that place really isn't on the beaten path as they say, even in West Virginia.

Unfortunately the roundhouse is gone. The tower there is closed. The turntable is there but there really isn't much else left. The Cowan subdivision that runs south towards Charleston still has a fair amount of coal that gets shipped east to Cumberland, then Baltimore, but that's it. So there were 2-3 engine sets parked there when my father and I went exploring 2 years ago. The Grafton Hotel and train station is still there, even if the steps don't come down to the tracks anymore. So the yard is just a shadow of it's former self. It's really kind of sad and anticlimactic now. 

I knew I should have gotten back to Grafton soon after I blundered on it.  I might have gotten there by something I read in a hobby magazine.  On trips east to and from central and SE Pa., I took scenic exploration detours, to places like Thurmond, the East Broad Top, the Johnstown Flood, (both in Pa.) the Fillippi? Civil

War Battle covered  bridge, W.Va. state parks, etc.  I got to Cass on one in the early

1970's, because that first trip was in a 1967 car (I remember dates???such as it is,

by cars driven)  Grafton was a much later trip, 1980's?

MTH 30-1166-0 NYO&W (#458) 4-8-2 L3 Mohawk w/Locosound, 2000 Vol. 2

MTH 30-1166-1 NYO&W (#458) 4-8-2 L3 Mohawk w/PS2, 2000 Vol. 2

MTH 30-1393-1 NYO&W (#405) "The Mountaineer" 4-8-2 L3 Mohawk w/PS2

MTH 30-1653-1 NYO&W (#406) "The Mountaineer" 4-8-2 L3 Mohawk w/PS3

     MTH had produced two different versions of the 4-8-2 Mountain for the NYO&W. #458 was offered in a standard black paint scheme and represents one of the NYO&W's ten Y-2 class heavy mountain locomotives (#451-#460). They were used on the O&W's numerous steep grades.

     MTH also produced "The Mountaineer" (#405). It is one of ten engines (#401-410) of the Y Class, Light Mountains. It is painted in the Mountaineer's distinctive maroon/orange/chrome paint scheme and had paneling added. This engine was as close to "streamlined" as the O&W ever got. #405 was an attempt to bring passenger traffic back to the O&W. It was a short lived success and eventually the engine was stripped of its adornments and returned to a standard black paint scheme.  #406, while a prototypical number, was never painted in Mountaineer colors. It is a reissue of the "Mountaineer" due out in April of 2015.

    There was also a single engine (#402) of the Y class light mountains that had a trailing booster added. This was later designated class Y-1, and was the only engine modified, suggesting that it wasn't a worthwhile upgrade.