O Scale Locomotive Guide: Pacifics

Ted-

I have not purchased that book but I will now be on the look out for it.

I really enjoyed these books by Schrenk and Frye.

Great photos in these books....

I believe this is a photo of a really early Q pacific that was take in North Dakota.

The Pacifics and Prairie's where pioneered by the NP.

Given the importance and the prevalence of this engine/wheel arrangement I am surprised that Lionel does not offer more scale versions.  I searched their product web page and while there are several Pennsy 4-6-2's there are not that many other roads.  I would love to see them offer the SP daylight version pictured on the first page of this discussion.  Heck, any western road 4-6-2 would be cool.

Has either of the major manufacturer/importers EVER made any scale Pacific other than the USRA engine and its variants (the Southern Ps4 is basically an improved USRA copy) or the Pennsy K-4? 3rd Rail and Weaver have made several in brass, but I don't recall seeing any scale engines from Lionel or MTH other than the USRA and PRR prototypes. 

Has either of the major manufacturer/importers EVER made any scale Pacific other than the USRA engine and its variants (the Southern Ps4 is basically an improved USRA copy) or the Pennsy K-4?

Southwest Hiawatha

You might want to read that original post again.  The MTH CNJ G3/P47 Pacific is a very accurate model of a great looking locomotive.  MTH has offered it in every prototypical road number and paint scheme for the CNJ as well as using it as a stand-in for other northeastern Pacifics.

Prototype Pacifics could be divided into two categories, pre-USRA designs and post-USRA designs.

Most pre-USRA Pacifics were rather small and light.  They were often hand fired.  As steel heavyweights became the standard for first class trains these early Pacifics became less suitable for mainline service.  At the same time that they were bumped off of premier trains new highways and automobiles were dramatically reducing the demand for branch line passenger trains.  Many pre-USRA Pacifics were scrapped in the 1930s and those that made it to the WW II years were likely headed for the scrap man soon after VJ day.

As for post-USRA Pacifics, it is worth noting how many were variations on the USRA design.  As you noted the Southern Ps4 is a design that was at least influenced by the USRA heavy Pacific.  The same can be said of the B&O P-7, C&O F-19 and Erie K-5A.  

The B&O, C&O, CNJ, Erie, Pennsylvania and Southern are all notable as railroads where Pacifics remained in service on their premier trains in the 1940s.  By that time most other large railroads had moved on to Husdons, Mountains, Northerns and diesels for their best passenger trains. 

Diecast model makers have to find a market for several hundred and preferably a few thousand locomotives to have a profitable project.  The market for pre-1940s or pre-USRA era models is rather small.  Do you have any Pacific type locomotives to suggest that might have a diecast sized market appeal that have not already been tooled and produced?

One possibility is a New York Central K-5, stepping stone to the Hudson.

I wish Lionel, MTH, Weaver, or 3rd Rail would make an accurate model of a NYC K5. A friend built up this 2 rail  model of a K 5 for me. Yes, the tender is not correct, but the engine is close enough.

Richard Gonzales

Ted

Thanks for mentioning the C&O F19. Lionel made an absolutely gorgeous model of that engine several years ago. The locomotive and matching cars went on clearance and I almost bought the whole train, but I was running out of storage space and I was short of money at the time. 

With regard to the Jersey Central engine, I was under the impression that was another USRA variant. If I was misinformed, so be it. I claim no expertise on the Jersey Central. To be honest, my eyes tend to glaze over any time the subject relates to New Jersey - I've been to New Jersey and I've been to Mogadishu, and I don't plan to return to either any time soon. 

The central point of my previous post remains - Lionel and MTH have done very, very little with non-USRA Pacifics. I'd like to see somebody make a Milwaukee Road Pacific with its distinctive round domes and inside-bearing trailing truck with the high spoked wheels, but it's a niche item and isn't going to happen. 

Richard

Those are beautiful pictures of a locomotive that deserves more attention.  Thanks for posting them!

With regard to the Jersey Central engine, I was under the impression that was another USRA variant.

The Jersey Central Pacifics were a custom design.  They had VERY large fire boxes.  The G3/P47 class that were assigned to the blue comet had 79" drivers, real high steppers.  The MTH premier CNJ Pacifics do not share tooling (chassis, boiler or tender) with their USRA Pacifics. MTH did a fine job with their model. 

Richard G that nyc k5 looks great! looks very impressive on that 2 rail track are you going 2 rail now?

Very nice overview of the various models out there, and nice pictures throughout.  

I'm curious if anyone has ever made a model with more "stuff" going on on the rear truck? For some reason seeing air above the truck has always deterred me from buying a Pacific... I suppose I like it to look like the truck is actually holding something up.  Perhaps this is prototypical for the original that was modeled, but in the pictures posted here, and elsewhere, there seems to be a lot more going on down there. 

Williams' brass C&NW USRA Light Pacific

I'm curious if anyone has ever made a model with more "stuff" going on on the rear truck? For some reason seeing air above the truck has always deterred me from buying a Pacific... I suppose I like it to look like the truck is actually holding something up.

JGL

In addition to ash pans, ash hoppers, booster engines and injectors there are frames and the suspension components that transfer weigh between the locomotive frame and training truck.  The details are much more complex than a single coil spring.

Unfortunately all those things get in the way when a trailing truck has to swivel enough to take an O-42 or O-31 curve like most Pacific models.  If the market would go for a scale Pacific that required O-72 or greater curves the bottom side could be much more detailed.

CGW

Thanks for the photos of the Williams brass Pacific.

Thanks for the info there.  I figured it was something like that, so for the time being the Pacifics will just have to go to someone else...  I'll leave it there so as not to get too far off topic.  

69nickeycama

Nope I am still a 3 railer. The layout pictured belongs to the  friend who built the NYC Pacific for me.

Back when the Lewis Ertz West Tennessee Central was still around I decided to put a two rail train together so I could run on the WTC. The plans to move the WTC to the Central Train station in Memphis  fell apart (no$$$$). The WTC  has been torn down and moved to Bold Knob Arkansas. 

 When the WTC was dismantled I was fortunate enough to get a few buildings and several of the remaining freight cars. I have a nice string of 2 rail freight cars and the NYC Pacific, and no where close to run them, other than my friends house.

I have considered building some kind of an O sale 2 rail layout, but my investment in 3 rail is just too big, my layout building skill set is not good enough for the intrigues of 2 rail, and finally I am just too old to switch. Had I seen the WTC 10 or 15 years ago, I am sure I would be posting on the 2 rail forum now,  

Have a fun and safe Memorial Day, and please take time to remember those who paid the ultimate price for our country and the freedoms  they guaranteed for us.

Take care,

Richard

Please take time to remember those who paid the ultimate price for our country and the freedoms  they guaranteed for us.

Thanks Richard.  In honor of them here is a photo of a troop train double headed by a Northern Pacific light and heavy 4-6-2.  It was taken by NP dispatcher Ron Nixon on March 6th 1941.  It is worth remembering that thousands of Americans entered the armed forces well before Pearl Harbor was attacked as the US prepared to preserve our freedom in a world that was rapidly becoming more and more dangerous.

It is also worth remembering that in January 1941 President Roosevelt laid out the aims of the United States in the Second World War, even though we were not yet a belligerent nation.  They do not concern territory or gold or control of natural resources.  The objectives that Americans fought to attain were and are far more valuable.

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

 

The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.

 

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

 

The third is freedom from want, which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

 

The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor -- anywhere in the world.

 

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called “new order” of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

 

To that new order we oppose the greater conception -- the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear.

 

Since the beginning of our American history we have been engaged in change, in a perpetual, peaceful revolution, a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly, adjusting itself to changing conditions without the concentration camp or the quicklime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.

 

This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women, and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights and keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose.

 

To that high concept there can be no end save victory.

Here are my Reading Pacifics, both of which are pretty accurate models of the real thing:

Weaver G1:

SGL G3:

According to Benjamin Bernhart in "The Reading Railroad's Mighty Pacifics", the last Pacific built in America (and the last locomotive built at the Reading shops) was the Reading's #219 (sister engine to the #210 shown above).  In 1956, the Reading offered this engine to be used as a display at City Park.  The locomotive could have travelled from 7th & Penn Street to City Park on the trolley tracks.  The Reading Railroad asked the City to pay for the display stand and the cost of lifting the locomotive off of Eleventh Street.  The City refused to pay this cost, and in 1957 all ten of the Reading's G3s were scrapped for about 6% of their constructions cost eight years before, or about $10,000 per locomotive.

Jim

p.s. The most famous Reading passenger train is probably "The Crusader."  Both the engine/tender and the streamlined cars were clad in stainless steel.  One of the neat things about the passengers cars was that both the first and fifth (last) passenger cars had a rounded end so that the only the engine/tender needed turned at the final destination and not the entire train.  Weaver did a really nice scale version of The Crusader, which I someday would also like to own.  Likewise, K-Line also did a very nice set with semi-scale passenger cars (that I believe was originally sold through the Boscov's department stores.)