O&S means O, sometimes S means O.

As I'm planning my own 1:64 future layout... some observations:

In my mind, most O Scale buildings are undersized.  They just have big doors.

For example, all the Ameritowne buildings are all 6" x 6" squares.  In O scale, that's 24' x 24'.  That's a small width / depth for a commercial city building. I live in St. Louis where in the 1850s-early 1900s, residential lots were generally 27' wide allowing for a 24' frontage and 3' walkway along one side of the lot.  You'll never see a commercial block that follows a consistent 24' frontage.  Often commercial fronts were all over the place with many being typically larger - 30' or more.  In 1:64, a 6" x 6" building is 32' x 32' which seems much more accurate. I'll get to height in a minute.

Here's an image from Google Maps of downtown Maplewood, MO.  I chose Maplewood because it's on the railroad, it's relatively flat, and I knew I could get a good panoramic view of the city block shot across Highway 100. I've drawn lines at the top and bottom of the 2nd story windows and top of the door frame with the building at center as my basis.

Note that neither the windows nor top of door frames consistently line up.  There were no universal building codes until the 1950s.  Ceilings varied in heights - typically from 10' to 13' but as high as 20'. 13' was pretty common during the Victorian and Pre-WWII era. They fell to 10' and eventually 8' after the war.   Higher ceilings allowed for larger windows which let in more light - IE: window "scale" is flexible and on average, a floor should be around 13' high - or 2.4".

That said - MTH's 3-story city building is 8" x 10" x 10 1/8".   That's roughly 32' x 40' x 40.5' in O scale or 42' x 53' x 54' in S.   While width and depth are ok, the height of the building is on the high side for S.  17' ceilings in a multi-story city building were not common. The Ameritowne buildings previously mentioned are 9" high - or 48'  which = 16' ceilings.  Ideally a 3 story building in 1:64 would be 7"-7.5" high - but - I presume the 9"  includes an 1" to 1.5" of cornice work... bringing the interior height into the 7-7.5" range. 

While today's standard exterior door is 36" x 80",  that's actually pretty small from a historical standpoint.   Historically, typical doors were 84" tall and in some "grand" cases, even larger.   Width's varied from 37" to 42".   So - a common scale door should be roughly 7' x 3.33' or roughly 1.33" x .615" in S Scale - but a grander door could be larger - say one found at the entry to a bank or government building - IE: O scale.

Speaking of building codes - unless one is modelling super modern - there were no ADA restrictions until 1992.   Generally storefronts had a step or two at the entryway from the street to catch leaves, trash, and other debris from tracking into the store. Many O scale models don't feature that.  An easy way to make an O scale model S might be to swap the entry door for S and install a front step from masonite.

I'm a huge fan of Downtown Deco buildings - because I like working with hydrocal.  I was curious how Randy's buildings scale out - for example: Patterson Hardware / Lulu's Tattoo is  11 1/2″ depth by 5.5" width and  Sisters of Mercy / Metals Bank are 6" x 10".  Well within S scale city block size.  Randy doesn't provide building height info on his website - so I need to get a hold of him to verify that info.   

Here's a building that was marketed to the HO crowd by Bachmann under their Plasticville brand.  It couldn't make up its mind on what scale to be: The front door was perfect size for S.  The back door was HO scale and the side door was N Scale.  The second floor is a bit cramped for S, but I've been in some old buildings that the second floor or attic wasn't quite standard height.

I've reworked the side and rear for S by adding S Scale Grant Line doors and windows.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Here's a building that was marketed to the HO crowd by Bachmann under their Plasticville brand.  It couldn't make up its mind on what scale to be: The front door was perfect size for S.  The back door was HO scale and the side door was N Scale.  The second floor is a bit cramped for S, but I've been in some old buildings that the second floor or attic wasn't quite standard height.

I've reworked the side and rear for S by adding S Scale Grant Line doors and windows.

Rusty

I'd seen you post that previously. That's just nutty that they were that all over the place!

One model of interest to me is MTH's 2-story station.



I've seen a lot of O gaugers use this station. It's nice looking - lot of good re-workings of it on the OGR forum Example:  https://ogrforum.com/...enger-station?page=1

Ed Rappe went so far as to change out the windows: https://ogrforum.com/...itbashed-using-a-mth   That said - I think it looks too small for O.  Ed's version looks like S to me.

As a kid, I spent much of my childhood bouncing between Topeka and Lawrence Kansas - basically whatever yard dad was switching at the time. I've been debating what era I want to model - either early 1940s or about 1950-55.  The availability of Santa Fe models has me leaning towards the early 50s - although I've always really loved steam heavy layouts... but the lack of steam options and the availability of AM's E8s have me on the fence as they are a very nice looking model.

ATSF Constructed new depots in 1950 Topeka and 1955 Lawrence of a Mid-Century Modern style. 


Lawrence, KS


Topeka, KS

I spent quite a bit of time in these buildings as a kid.  They were in operation on the cusp of the steam transition - in Lawrences' case, just barely.  I don't know of any models that might fit the time frame.  However - and why I bring up the MTH station, before 1950, both towns have a late 1880s station:


Lawrence, KS



Topeka, KS

That MTH depot doesn't look like to bad a substitute given the grandeur of the older ATSF depots. 

Since I made the original post I’ve settled for HO scale buildings, mostly Walters Cornerstone. Yes, they’re a little small but unless they’re right up against the train they don’t look wrong and I can fit more in.

BTW Walters Cornerstone buildings have incredible detail - a bit tedious to put together but worth it.

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

One model of interest to me is MTH's 2-story station.



I've seen a lot of O gaugers use this station. It's nice looking - lot of good re-workings of it on the OGR forum Example:  https://ogrforum.com/...enger-station?page=1

Ed Rappe went so far as to change out the windows: https://ogrforum.com/...itbashed-using-a-mth   That said - I think it looks too small for O.  Ed's version looks like S to me.

The MTH 2-story station is based on the Central New England RR (later New Haven) Middletown, Connecticut depot.  Plans and a construction article appeared in the May 1996 Model Railroader.

The prototype was 71 feet long, 24 feet wide and 40 feet high at the peak.  The Bay stuck out another 4.5 feet.  As I recall, the model measured out pretty close to those dimensions in S.

Rusty

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

Note that neither the windows nor top of door frames consistently line up.  There were no universal building codes until the 1950s.  Ceilings varied in heights - typically from 10' to 13' but as high as 20'. 13' was pretty common during the Victorian and Pre-WWII era. They fell to 10' and eventually 8' after the war.   Higher ceilings allowed for larger windows which let in more light - IE: window "scale" is flexible and on average, a floor should be around 13' high - or 2.4".

That said - MTH's 3-story city building is 8" x 10" x 10 1/8".   That's roughly 32' x 40' x 40.5' in O scale or 42' x 53' x 54' in S.   While width and depth are ok, the height of the building is on the high side for S.  17' ceilings in a multi-story city building were not common. The Ameritowne buildings previously mentioned are 9" high - or 48'  which = 16' ceilings.  Ideally a 3 story building in 1:64 would be 7"-7.5" high - but - I presume the 9"  includes an 1" to 1.5" of cornice work... bringing the interior height into the 7-7.5" range.
X

I forgot to account for the floors themselves.  Figure 2x12" joists for every floor adding an additional foot per upper floor to account for.  That brings the Ameritowne buildings right into the S range.

As for the MTH city buildings, they have roughly an inch of cornice + that chunky base which like 3/4-1" in height?  So figure 1.5"-2" or 7.5-10 scale feet.  What was a 53 scale ft building in height is now only 43-45.  Subtract 2 for the floor joists and you are at 41-43 feet.  That's between 13.5-14.5' ceilings.  Well within a reasonable range for pre-war construction.

@Rusty Traque posted:

The MTH 2-story station is based on the Central New England RR (later New Haven) Middletown, Connecticut depot.  Plans and a construction article appeared in the May 1996 Model Railroader.

The prototype was 71 feet long, 24 feet wide and 40 feet high at the peak.  The Bay stuck out another 4.5 feet.  As I recall, the model measured out pretty close to those dimensions in S.

Rusty

From the dimensions I saw, it was on the high end of S - if you look a Ed Rappe's photos - his looks undersized compared to his 2 - rail heavyweights.

Here's something from other scales: Water towers.

The left one is HO and was sold by Athearn about a decade ago, the right is by Lionel and is still available in various decorations.

Both are usable in S.  Why?  Because fortunately, prototype water towers are built in many shapes and sizes.

Rusty

Is that the Iron Giant or Gort in the last photo?

@FlyerRich posted:

Is that the Iron Giant or Gort in the last photo?

Iron Giant.  It came with the DVD.  Should be bigger for S...

Rusty

The problem with scale being too small starts with 2 X 4s being 1.5 X 3.5 actual size !

Charlie

@Rusty Traque posted:

Here's something from other scales: Water towers.

The left one is HO and was sold by Athearn about a decade ago, the right is by Lionel and is still available in various decorations.

Both are usable in S.  Why?  Because fortunately, prototype water towers are built in many shapes and sizes.

Rusty

I have one of them. I got it on a visit to Trainworld and when I saw it (well, the box), I immediately thought that it was a mis-labeled O scale product. So, being a fan of water tanks and towers, I bought it. Carrying it home on the subway was fun!*

I took this photo in Estill, SC a few years ago; except for the depth of the tank, it is a close match for the Athearn tank in O scale.

Tank top details:

Oddly, I never took any bottom-of-the-tank detail photos.

*I have found that the Ditmas Ave. station on the F train to be a very expensive one to use.

I'm convinced that model train manufacturers don't own rulers.     

I presume that building behind the police car is an O kit? 

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

I'm convinced that model train manufacturers don't own rulers.     

I presume that building behind the police car is an O kit?

No.  It's an S Scale urethane building kit made by DSL Shops (it was called Davis Drugs) back in the mid 1990's.

My "Main Street" had two other DSL structures besides Davis Drugs: Halsted Hobbies (middle) and Pershing Bakery (closest to camera.)  Dave Lull based his kits on existing buildings.

Rusty

Very nice!  Good looking kits.  I'll have to keep an eye out for those.