Oh No! PRR 1361 back in the news !

Good evening everybody, I read all of your posts and I have to agree. I was working in the Scranton area and got rained out one day while 1361 was at Steamtown.

So I thought I would spend the day looking around. As one of you mentioned we went a guide tour of the shops and there sat the 1361.  People on the tour asked questions about the engine and if the answer it wasn't written on the guides cheat sheet he didn't have a clue.

One of the gentlemen that appeared to be working on 1361, but seem to spend more time leaning against it so it wouldn't fall over had what I thought some very ignorant answers when some of the group decided to asked him questions.

I realize maybe he was not a people person but if that be the case instead of standing there move on to another area that is off limit to the tour and wait for the crowd to leave.

On another trip to Steamtown a year later the attitude of the people working in the shop and on 1361 seemed to be worse with complaining about funding to finish 1361 in front of the tour group.

The comment was made we work until the money runs out, were not working for free you know!!!

We need to get this piece of@#$#out of here so we can get some jobs that pay!!!

I realize at the time he may be speaking the truth, but you just don't go spouting off like this to a tour group.

After this trip my mind was made up that as far as I am concerned I will never go back.

I sometimes think the reason 1361 was sent to Steamtown was to prove that the money spent to build Steamtown was well spent and to prove their existence will let them rebuild the engine.

"Look what we can do here in Pennsylvania"

I agree going to Strasburg Shops would have been a better decision, but as they say hind sight is 20/20.

Also the individual that made the comment about the first rebuild you were correct it was a little more than a patch job kinda like a Sherman Williams Rebuild with a few new parts. 

It is a shame and what has happened to this locomotive is in the past. Hopefully they don't make the same mistake again.

To you folks that posted the videos they were great.

Looking at the track when 1361 crosses over from the Conrail main now Norfolk Southern onto the Juanita Bald Eagle Branch those tracks sure look to be in bad shape.

It has to be the camera angle!!!!

And yes that is one wild whistle. I just couldn't understand why the blew the whistle as much as they did. They are on it the whole up thru town, oh well boys and their toys.

I have a Railking K4 that years ago I put a QSI Banshee Whistle Sound board in it.

This sound board had a lot of the functions that the DCS system has today if you were patient enough to work the whistle and bell buttons on the transformer.

That whistle is definitely diffrent than any other steam whistle out there.

I don't know of any of the manufactures use this whistle sound. it was just screech and running the engine in a doppler mode heading for a tunnel or coming out it really sound cool.

I think I will have to get out my own copy of the Junita Jewel and watch this old girl run down the rails.

Thanks again for the response Hotwater! 

Its quite interesting how railroads did what they wanted back then without having a ton of regulations over their head waiting to smash them if they made one mistake. 

Guys, correct me if I'm wrong here.  It is my understanding that the rebuilding of the 1361 was NOT a Steamtown project.  It was simply contracted to be done in the Steamtown shops.  Big difference here.  You're placing the blame at the wrong people.

I can't speak for all the guides there, but not all of them are created equal.  I had one who was very knowledgable, and in no rush whatsoever to push the group through.  Sometimes, it's just a case of going at the right time.

Kevin

You are correct.

It still seems like some of the best steam programs, are the volunteer ones

Yes, the key word being "some".

It wasn't Steamtown's fault at all, but more the fault of how the "museum" in Altoona has been mismanaged since it's been opened.  It's more a playground for political appointees so they can play with trains and not any kind of serious endeavor.

1361 became the victim of what people who had no knowledge or experience with any kind of trains, much less the restoration of a steam locomotive can do.  They had the resources of the Museum and shops in Strasburg to restore it and it would not only have been cosmetically restored, but probably operationally ready.

Instead, it was thought to be a good idea to have it handled by University of Scranton and a Government facility for whatever reason.

The Autumn 2009 edition (Volume 42 Issue #3) of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society's publication The Keystone covers the debacle pretty well in my opinion.  There are 3 articles of note:

• The Building of Tornado (UK class A1 Pacific) - this is an engine whose boiler construction did not meet modern specifications.  It was rebuilt to meet modern specs while retaining its accurate cosmetic appearance and is now in tourist revenue service.  Win-win.  Of course, you have to know what you're doing...
• Tornado and 1361 - a comparison & contrast of the restoration efforts of these two engines.  One a success story, the other a cluster****.
• 1361’s Career

Interesting reading.  I'm going to go back and re-read my issue.

George

the Summer of 2010 Keystone had a follow up article ---->

MORE ABOUT 1361

Good evening everyone, reading over your posts I stand corrected on who was in charge of the rebuild of 1361.

But I do know the comments were made by the  shop workers at Steamtown.

At this time there is no sense of beating a dead horse.

Lets hope someone makes the correct decision and gets the 1361 project back on track.

We will just have to wait and see.

This has been a great post, thanks to everyone for their knowledge and insight.

As a result of their FRA Form 4 mathematical calculations, don by a registered Professional Engineer, when submitted, they will have to operate at a reduced boiler pressure. That being said, remember that the Santa Fe 2900 class locomotives were originally 300 psi operating pressure boilers. Just a guess, since I have NOT heard any numbers yet, but I'll bet 280 psi should work out just fine.

Hot Water

IIRC the ATSF 2900s were the heaviest 4-8-4s ever built and their weight was the largely result of the use of thicker steel in the boiler shell since higher strength steel was not available during the war.  Was the weight vs. available material problem the driving issue in the ATSF deciding to accept a lower safety factor for the 2900s boilers?

No. The size/weight of the material was NOT an issue during the war, for boiler construction. Note that the Union Pacific locomotives were NOT affected.

The war materials shortage DID however affect the use of "fancy", light weight, roller bearing equipped side rods for the Santa Fe 2900s. The "war production" 2900s had to be delivered with heavy "slab" plain bearing rods (another reason for their very heavy weight). The Santa Fe later up-graded the 2900s to the then available light weight roller bearing rods.

Not intending to hijack my own thread, but what is the difference between a 2900 series boiler, and say 3776???    Also wondering why this would not have effected the 5011 class from around the same time.  Was AT&SF having a serious brain fart, or what !   As pointed out, the material certainly was around to do it right.

Well, all I have to say, you and Rich were both wrong on the 4014 being restored. Its being done.  Give them a chance and maybe it might come together. I myself would rather see 1361 around Horsecurve than 765.  

Well sir, before you start counting your unhatched chickens just yet, the 4014 isn't even out of California, let alone inside the Cheyenne Steam Shop for restoration/rebuild! 

How much money was given to Steamtown?

Dave

Nope, not counting my chickens. Just stating a fact. 4014 is closer to being restored than ever before. Which is a far cry from, never. As for 1361, who knows whats in store or what game plan they have. I will say they are at least setting a goal of getting the roundhouse completed and moving ahead with restoration in Altoona. I'm Just glad, that they don't share the same negative attitude. We should be supportive and optimistic. Who knows another great locomotive may live again.

The 3776 and 2900 classes were virtually identical in most respects, except the 3776 class (1941) locomotives were built with nickle steel boilers and the 2900's (1943) with carbon steel.  The result was the 2900's being 2 tons heavier.(as built)

My guess is that if nickle steel was available at the time of the construction of the 2900's, we'd be talking about the 3786 class instead.

My research also shows that Santa Fe had to replace most of the nickel steel boilers on the 3765 and 3776 classes, but the reason wasn't given.  So, carbon steel may have been a good thing for the 2900's.

Rusty

Regarding the numbering of the 2900 class, the reason why they weren't numbered from 3786 is that there were thirty of them built.  If the Santa Fe numbered the 2900's from 3786 they would have gone over 3799 into the 3800's, which were already used by the 3800 class 2-10-2's.  so they had to go into a vacant number series.

Stuart

Originally posted by RL Harner:

 

"Well, all I have to say, you and Rich were both wrong on the 4014 being restored. Its being done.  Give them a chance and maybe it might come together. I myself would rather see 1361 around Horsecurve than 765."

 

 

Nothing wrong with "those who know better" on this forum telling us foamers how it really is. I appreciate the information given by Rich, Hotwater and others who KNOW WHAT IT TAKES to get a steam locomotive back into operation. I imagine the 4014 project could grind to a halt just as fast as the 261 went from on display to operational. Especially with the recent lawsuit developments.

 

The fact it was mentioned 1361 could be operational is silly, I don't think any steam locomotive has ever been "completely restored" within a year.

 

Having said that, I'm on my way to Elkhart In to watch the recently restored mohawk #3001.

 

Well the "ones that know better" can be wrong. The negative attitudes on projects and interests outside of their own, is alittle much.  These "ones that know better" would never want someone negative on their team criticising every decision they make. Lets face it, they are not privy to every decision on every restoration. If Rich was to say 765 would take six months for something to be done, I would believe him and be supportive. After all, he would know it is his project. As for 1361 who knows whats happening, nobody has any information outside of the project leaders. Pure negetive speculation on these projects does nothing to intice people to restore or support any efforts to save these locomotives. Don't assume I don't "KNOW WHAT IT TAKES".

My question is not based on the boiler material, but rather the design change that caused the reduction in safety factors. A fair number of high alloy boilers were replaced during the late steam years for a number of reasons, mostly fatigue. Just ask the NYCS guys!  Must have been a staybolt shortage at Baldwin !    hehehehe

Didn't HOTWATER already answer this?

Increase in safety factor.

May been a stress issue with staybolt arrangement also?