Opinions on using the ZW-L for DCS? <ZW-L Up & Running! >

Alex,

As the Zw-L appears to be a neat new transformer, at 620 watts compared to 800 watts with the 2 Z-4000's, you would be getting less power with the 1 transformer. Also if the ZL chops the Sine Wave form, it's not for me, as I run PS1 engines that don't like that.

I have DCS and TMCC run with Z-4000 transformers.

Hi, Joe -

I wasn't really thinking of replacing both of my two Z4000's - they have worked all too well so far. But I did wonder about replacing on of them with a ZW-L, and using the left over Z4000 for other 'duties' or perhaps adding a third TIU - just a thought.

Any changes or additions always open the door for something that was working OK to stop doing so - and you know how that goes. . .

Thx

Alex

Alex....

If you EVER decide to run PS-1 locomotives, you may have a problem with the ZW-L.  I know you may not ever buy a PS-1 locomotive since those run on conventional power, but never say never as the old saying goes.  Anyway, as it stands, your current power lineup is working well and other than just having to have the new gadget....I think your current power supply is working quite well as demonstrated when we were there last weekend....had a wonderful time!!

Alan

Joe, Alan, (Barry) et al -

I just happened to wonder . . . What is the maximum output per TIU channel? I searched but couldn't find it.

I know that each handle or output of the Z4K's can provide 10 amps, and I have each of my two Z4K's connected to a TIU, such that each Z4K output is divided into two of the four TIU channels. In other words, I have two of the following:

Z4000 (2 outputs, 10 amps each) >>> TIU (4 outputs, 5 amps each) >>> track (20 amps max)

That is, assuming that the TIU channels are more or less equally loaded, and that the voltage is around 18 volts.

Now then, could the following be done with a ZW-L?

ZW-L (4 outputs, 8.5 amps each*) >>> TIU (4 outputs, 8.6 amps each**) >>> track (~34 amps max)

*The ZW-L can supply up to 180W per output, or about 10 amps @ 18 volts BUT the total cannot exceed 620W. This means that if/when the loads are balanced, each output can handle only 155W or about 8.6 amps @ 18 volts. THE ZW-L manual (online) states that if three of the outputs are at the full 180W, then the fourth will be limited so the total will not exceed 620W.

** Could each TIU output supply 8.6 amps?

Opinions?

Alex

I believe the rated maximum for the TIU is 10A per channel.  I suspect that if you come anywhere close to that figure, you probably want forced air cooling on the TIU.

I agree with John above.....I think that the TIUs have a 10 amp rating....BUT....as one gets closer to that maximum rating I would also think that there may be heat generated.  I got the impression that the 10 amp rating for any period of time may cause the breaker to engage...??

Regardless....I am willing to bet that a new ZW-L is going to be delivered to someone's layout....

Alan

Alex,

    Got to tell you after running at Patrick H's house with the ZW-L,  I was very impressed with it, and I am considering adding one to my DCS layout myself, and investing in a couple of Legacy engines.  I do not think anyone has done enough R&D work with the combination of Z4K's and the new ZW-L just yet, to really answer your questions.   Patrick's beautiful layout is basically a Legacy controlled

operation that he adds the DCS to at times.  From what I understand you run like I do with the DCS as a main control system, which changes a lot.  Would love to acquire a ZW-L and add it to a big DCS controlled layout, and actually see what I can do with it.

PCRR/Dave

I got to see one at Henning's Trains, a pretty impressive package.  Seems well thought-out and HEAVY!

Each TIU channel is rated at 12 amps or 190 watts max, and they are fused at 20 amps each.

Rod

I would be happy to get 6 to 8 amps from each TIU channel even if on an intermittent basis, and it ‘appears’ that the ZW-L could facilitate that. If the TIU were to get a bit warm, I could add a small fan, as you guys suggested.

I have to check the potential of the chopped-wave and its implications.

Bottom line, I guess, is that it would be feasible to connect the four ZW-L outputs to the four TIU inputs, and thus increase the amperage available to the tracks served by that TIU.

Correct?

Rod,

I just read your post - that makes it even better!

Dave,

I believe we have similar setups. (and Alan too . . .)

John,

If I order one, I'll pick it up - Shipping must be sky-high.

THX!

Alex

The Lionel bricks put out a solid 10 amps, at least for 15-20 minutes.  My test resistor set was getting mighty warm, five 75W two ohm resistors.

Alex....not to contradict Rod above but I went to the MTH website and downloaded the TIU manual just to make sure that something wasn't different than what is in my manuals.  The site says the TIU is rated at 10 amps....

Alan

Alex,

   You are very kind sir, I wish my layouts were more like yours, wih my limited space that is never going to happen, however I was speaking as to powering the layout and how the ZW-L might effect the entire

workage.  We will need to do a lot of experimental work to see just how compatible

the ZW-L really is, the way Patrick H's ZW-L is set up for Legacy is fine, however blending it into a DCS controlled layout is going to be somewhat different and nobody knows just exactly how the Chopped-wave will react.  If you purchase one please let us know how it fits in with your incredible DCS layout.  I am hoping the Chopped-wave has little over all effect on powering the layout.

PCRR/Dave

One more question and I'll take action - or not.

Do you see any potential problems with the following:

(TIU #1)

A 'new' ZW-L with each of its four outputs connected to each of the four inputs of TIU #1.

(TIU #2)

My current two Z4000's, with each of their four outputs (two from each Z4K) connected to each of the four inputs of TIU #2.

 Like this:

The cost of one ZW-L is in the ball-park of the cost of two Z4K's, but one ZW-L takes less space than two Z4K's, and the available amperage is close.

Thx!

Alex

Alex, I don't see a problem with either of those configurations.  Unless I'm missing something obvious, both should work just fine.

Alex,

    1st I see no problem with what you have planned, once you R&D the chopped-wave situation.   Further I think I am going to pick up another Z4K used but in perfect shape, to expand the power on my layout.  Because I use a large transformer table with different transformers, I am not worried about the space for transformers.   Now that the ZW-L is out I believe the price on a used Z4K will come down even further, as people purchase new ZW-L's. 

I will then use one Z4K and one traditional ZW on each TIU, giving me the ability to

use the Z4K side receiver on both TIU's. 

I like your idea Alex but right now I want to keep the over head down to a roar.

PCRR/Dave

Alan; I stand corrected. I see in the DCS manual that the rating is indeed 10 amps per channel.

Not sure where I thought I read the higher figure, but thanks for the clarification.

Alex; I have to agree your hookup depicted for the ZWL and the two Z4K's looks right on the money to me.

I think it would be very "tidy" to power each TIU channel from a separate handle of one power supply like this.

We will be very interested in how this works out for you!

Do we konw for sure that the ZWL is chopped sine wave?

Z4K's are pure sine wave as far as I know.

Rod

Perhaps the only thing to watch out for is phasing. Obviously, this would be easy to get correct within each TIU since the four ZW-L outputs will be easily identified and phased, and also the four Z4K outputs.

But I have to make sure that the phasing between the two TIU's; that is, of the ZW-L vs. the two Z4K's is correct.

Now the decision is to whether save a few (not that many) bucks and buy two Z4K's making a total of four, or buy one ZW-L to save space, and have something different.

Alex

You gotta' have the latest thing, what's wrong with you?

Alex,

    Get busy doing the R&D work with the ZW-L and the DCS will ya, looking far down the road I can see a ZW-L and a Z4K on each TIU for the trains and a couple old ZW's for switches and operating platform equipment.  With both DCS & Legacy

hand held remote control. 

PCRR/Dave

(Pictures, below)

After receiving my new ZW-L, I rewired the two Z4000's to reduce the wire length to TIU #1 from 90 to 60 feet. (Went up the wall, over the suspended ceiling, and down behind the post that will soon be enclosed). Wire lengths to TIU #2 remain at 40 feet.

Some Observations:

• The ZW-L voltage settings do not appear to vary when the load varies from less than 1 amp to 5 amps.

• Measured the ZW-L voltage with two different multimeters; one (Craftsman 82141) read the same as the analog meters, the other (GB Instruments GDT-11) read 1-volt higher.

• All four ZW-L outputs max out (handles all the way to the stops) at about 18.7 volts - all the same - and I have been runnning the trains at that setting.

• The two Z4000's can vary from an initial setting of 20 at less than 1 amp, to 17 volts at 5 amps. When this happens, I move the handle(s) up until I get 18 volts.

• The oscilloscope traces (Rigol DS1052E) were taken with the probes connected to the transformer posts. The TIU's were also connected, and the same traces resulted with the probes connected to the tracks, so the traces are what the trains see. Voltage difference from levels measured at the posts to measured at the tracks were 0 to 1 volt.

• The output trace of the ZW-L by itself (not connected to anything), was smoother. I did not do the Z4000 by itself - yet.

• I had to raise the voltage of the Z4000 over one volt higher, as measured with the multimeter, to make it match the level of the ZW-L on the scope.

Everything (DCS and Legacy) is running great!!!

See pictures, below.

Alex

Alex,

Thanks for this very informational post, and also the pictures. These are great and will assist anyone trying to hook up there ZW-L along with the Z-4000. I do not understand half of it, but if you said it,,,it has to be correct. This ought to be a tutorial for everyone.

I hope Judy is in the kitchen cooking something special for you tonight. You deserve a good meal after this and boy she is the one that can deliver it.

Nice pictures Alex.   It appears that the ZW-L and Z-4000 do a pretty good job with close to a sine wave.

Alex,

    Great test and report, thanks for doing the heavy lifting.  The old KW looks good

in there also.

PCRR/Dave

I would think the pictures would be quite different at half throttle. From what I've heard the Z4K would still look like a sine wave (with the glitches at zero crossing) but the ZW-L would be a shark's tooth waveform.

Maybe Alex will be up to another test.

Chuck, John -

Well, you talked me into it!

Look here:

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/13819431474667811

Enjoy!

Alex