Outside Third-Rail

I think the 700E was offered with a third rail option.

Interesting question. The late John Armstrong (1920-2004) used outside third rail on his big O-scale home layout because that's what he had started out with originally. It had the advantage of simpler prototype-style signalling systems using the running rails, as compared to setups with track power from two running rails.

 

I gather that early O-gaugers used outside third-rail as an alternative to Lionel's "toy-like" center third rail, without having to go to the trouble of insulating all their wheels. An outside third rail could be more visually unobtrusive than a center rail, I suppose.  

 

Why would an outside third rail make signaling more prototypical?  I think it would be the same.  I use insulated sections and relays like the the real thing - red for occupied block, yellow to indicate next block is red, green for all clear and black if no trains present.  the signals are al based on the track conditions.

 

What am  I missing?

The Bay Ridge O scale Club is the Only O scale club that I am aware of that uses the outside third rail. NYSME had theirs up until the early 1980's.

An outside third rail supplied power for New York City subways and some interurban railways (the Wilkes-Barre & Hazleton, for example). So that qualifies as more realistic than a center rail.

Within the last 10 years there was an article in Classic Toy Trains which featured an outside rail layout which was quite extensive.   The folks over there could probably direct you to the issue.  Or you could google "outside 3rd rail layouts.

 

--Greg

As opposed to 2-rail power setups.

 

---PCJ

I have an outside 3rd rail layout. I am absolutely fascinated with old outside rail layouts. My switching layout is built with rail and components from the 20's and 30's. I have a Yahoo group called "outside 3rd rail modeling" and am also moderator of the "Friends of the Delta Lines" Yahoo group dedicated to Frank Ellison's legendary outside rail layout. Most people today may not see the point but if you see it in person you'll understand. I'll never go back to inside rail for a personal layout aside from the Christmas tree. Check out those groups for more info.

Hello Fred,

 

I did a Yahoo search for your Group and could not locate it.  Could you please let me know how to locate it.

 

Thanks in advance,

Steve

I usually keep an eye on the brass section of ebay's o guage trains, and sometimes there are outside 3rd rail steam engines offered for sale.  I believe that brass engine kits were popular in the 40's and 50's and many of the outside 3rd rail engines that I have seen for sale I think were built from these kits.

 

Jim

The Cincinnati Ohio Union Terminal museum has a 3rd outside rail layout that has been set up every year since 1946 during the holidays. There is a local train club that runs it and takes care of it. It is in the basement.

While outside third rail track is prototypical and IMO looks better than 3 rail track the main impediment is that it has to be hand laid. At the very least you'll need to take Gargraves 2 rail track and add the outside rail. While I admire the dedication to those doing those types of layout, I can't possibly imagine laying the 100's of feet of outside third rail track required for the average home layout. This type of track would probably look excellent on a NYC subway recreation but how many hobbiests have the time to do it?

Try this:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outside3rdrail/

Thanks Fred!

"Looks better than center-rail 3-rail"? Oh, no, no. Looks far worse - especially when you

contemplate all those (sparking?) whiskers sticking out from the locos.

 

Now, if you are modeling the NYC outside third rail electric division, and if you would

properly model an under-running shoe system, then that would be just fantastic.

This is the only place that 3 rails looks better than 2.

 

Otherwise, 2 rails always look better than 3 (how could it not?), and center-rail type

is just far tidier. 

I've never had an outside rail shoe spark before so that's a new one on me.

 

Of course 2 rail looks better! There just isn't a prototype for outside third rail that isn't purely traction based.

 

 

 

 

Look at that untidy non center mounted third rail and those horribly obvious whiskers on those engines! Oh my!

 

 

 

 

Hopefully the sarcasm was picked up! It's all in good fun.

As many of you will know, outside 3rd rail power is fairly common in the UK. There are even a few places with centre 3rd rail, and some with both at the same time. Apart from at junctions, it's hardly visible after it's weathered in a bit. 

 

Here is a link to a really good article that may be of help to anyone thinking of constructing a layout using outside 3rd rail. It also shows a good selection of prototypical arrangements for junctions and crossings.  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russelliott/3rd-4th.html

Well, this old Bronx kid would have to disagree with that. Down there all track was outside third rail. The distinction between overrunning (subway) or under-running (NYC) wouldn't matter much, particularly since these old eyes probably wouldn't really see the difference at 1/48 scale.  And the arcing that occurred whenever a third rail shoe made or broke contact with the rail was one of the best parts of train watching. It happened often in the complex trackage in the Mott Haven coach yard - all part of the great memories.

 

Neat photos, Fred.

 

I will admit that the whiskers on steam locos can make you wince, but then again we never got to see any steam within the New York City limits. So I wouldn't mind having a Hudson with whiskers just to get steam to run on my layout.

 

I still hope I have the opportunity to build a little outside 3rd rail into a layout in the future.

 

Jim

If 2- rail were not so trivially easy, I would have outside third.  I believe battery and R/C technology will ensure that inside or outside third will be simply a matter of preference in the near future.  Then the debate will proceed to aesthetics, where it belongs now - in my opinion.

I completely agree Bob. I'm pretty big into rc cars and have lots of experience with lipo batteries and brushless motors which I think will ultimately become the norm. There are already a couple of conversion kits that can convert any dcc system to onboard battery power. Its only a matter of time before it ultimately takes over. The current technology is already light years ahead of dc brushed motors and nicad batteries and always getting better.

I like outside 3rd rail for the historic value. I'm fascinated by the way things were once done. I don't proclaim it to be better than any other system although I do personally think it looks nicer than inside 3rd rail, which I also like for historical reasons by the way. I love 2 rail and agree that it looks most natural. How could it not? In the end I just like trains and while I have my own preferences, I dislike none of the others.