Owners of Lionel's 6-28084 Dreyfuss Hudson - Which 20th Century Limited Passenger Cars do you use?

As I said in my original post, my engine of choice is already Lionel's 6-28084 model. My question was more for the passenger cars.

Lionel made 7 18" cars in 2008. These would have complete interiors with figures and also match your Dreyfuss in 1938 colors. Might be slightly easier to find than GGD but I suspect still priced dearly. But then you would have to overlook the "protruding" windows.

Pete

Nick, 

Are you aware GGD has, or will produce two different sets?

there is a 1937 version and a 1940 version.

Scrappy

Eliot - In Google-ing "GGD 20th Century Limited", I saw that they have the set in three versions - 1937, 1940, and 1948. My preference would be the earliest version with the blue stripes, as I'm assuming this matches Lionel's engine.

However, I may have wrongly assumed these were all produced already. Is the 1948 version the only one that's out right now?

Protruding windows still eliminate Lionel from my consideration, yes. A shame, as the cars are beautiful otherwise.

Also, I had thought those cars were cancelled along with the Dreyfuss remake?

I'm pretty sure that Golden Gate Depot has already produced all three Twentieth Century Limited train sets, i.e. 1937 (with the blue stripes), the 1940 (same as 1937 but without the blue stripes), and the 1948 (completely different obs. car with lightning stripes).

For what it's worth, the 1937 train set was VERY heavy, i.e. difficult to pull. Also, concerning the blue stripes, it may be prototypical for a Hudson with the blue stripes to be hauling a 1940 version train set, and visa-versa. A more knowledgable NYC person may want to confirm this.

For the longest time, there has been a GGD 20th Century Limited set for sale on the Bay, but it is now gone. I believe they pop up fairly regularly.

Lastly, there is no real "alternative" to the Golden Gate Depot New York Central passenger train sets! Everything else available in O Scale 3-Rail, really looks pretty poor next to the GGD product.

Golden gate produced three versions 1938, 1940, 1948. The1938 and 1940 are from the earlier run. The 1948 are from a later run. All were released already and might be found in the secondary market .

 In the prototype, the 1948 edition of the 20th century were new and differrent cars and floor plans from the earlier versions. Also, the 1948 century usually was handled by E-7s , occasionally a Niagara .

The Lionel Legacy Dreyfuss was shown in the 2008 catalog but not produced. Neither were the accompanying cars shown in the catalog.

The earlier TMCC Lionel Dreyfuss was of course produced. The Lionel matching car set uses their 16 inch car design.

MTH made an 18 in car set for its various releases of the dreyfuss Hudson. Its car design as you may know is generic.

Matching colors is the big problem with trying to select a car set to acquire for your

dreyfuss. I thought that some folks who bought the GGD cars sets used them with Lionels Dreyfuss. Anyone that has this combo should chime in here.

Thanks so much for your input guys, and I guess GGD is the only way to go then. Indeed, we need someone who paired the cars with the Lionel Dreyfuss to chime in.

A good friend of mine purchased the first FULL GGD 20th Century set, and pulls it with an MTH Dreyfuss Hudson, converted to TMCC. THAT model has absolutely NO PROBLEM pulling the whole train (12 cars?). He also purchased the Sunset/3rd Rail ESE Hudson and uses it to pull his 21" K-Line ESE train set (10 to 12 cars?). The Sunset/3rd Rail Dreyfuss model had real trouble pulling the whole first (1937) 20th Century train set.

I believe 3rd Rail also made a Dreyfuss to go with their cars but I'm not sure either the 3rd Rail nor Lionel Dreyfuss can pull all 12 cars by itself.

Good to know the MTH Dreyfuss can pull all 12 cars. I have yet to put mine to the test.

Pete

Since 3rd Rail is brass, I'm assuming that's lighter and thus it would have traction issues with the cars. The heavier Lionel and MTH die-cast models with the rubber traction tires are the stump-pullers, and I'm surprised to hear the Lionel model would have trouble.

I was going to buy the Lionel Dryfuss years ago when some of the dealers had them on blow out for about $600, but passed when Lionel offered the matching 15" cars for them instead of the 18" cars.

A couple of years ago I got the 2006 MTH version with the Scullin Disc drivers and PT tender. I got the matching MTH 18" 5 car set with 3 of the add on cars.

Just because a model is constructed of brass may not mean it is "lighter". In most of the brass steam locomotive models, there is a large lead weight inside the boiler, and adding additional weight is usually not much of a problem. One difference however, may be that the brass models generally have sprung drive wheels, and the die cast models do not.

The Sunset/3rd Rail brass models generally are excellent pullers, what with the lead weight in the boiler, traction tires, and fully sprung drive wheel axles, and many of my Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive models really do pull pretty long trains. However, none of the guys in our modular layout group figured out why that Sunset/3rd Rail Dreyfuss Hudson would NOT pull that heavy 20th Century Limited train set. 

Jerry, I have that same engine. Do those MTH cars actually match the engine? I know the earlier cars do not.

Neither do the GGD cars.

Pete

Pete, the grey on the later MTH cars match the later MTH engines. The first run of the MTH Dryfuss and matching cars in 2000 were a lighter grey than the Lionel engine. This is the reason I didn't buy the Lionel engine. The matching Lionel cars were the 15" cars and the first run 18" MTH cars were lighter than the Lionel Dryfuss. The 2006 MTH Dryfuss engines (4 versions) and matching passengers were a darker grey than the 2000 MTH engine and cars and probably close to the grey that is on the Lionel Dryfuss. Hope this helps.

Here is a review of the Lionel and MTH Dryfuss Hudsons made in 2000. You can clearly see the darker shade of grey on the Lionel engine.

http://www.toytrainrevue.com/prod-3-3.htm

The 20th Century Limited is one of several name trains I want to model.

And I, too, want a Dreyfus Hudson to pull it.  However, rather than buy the loco now, I am convinced it is just a matter time, and probably not that much time, until Lionel brings out either a vision (hopefully) or Legacy version.  It has been eleven years since Lionel made one, and its time for a verison with the latest Legacy, sound, cruise, whistle steam, etc.  So I'll wait . . . 

Thanks for the link Jerry. It does appear the Lionel Dreyfuss is a closer match to the later MTH engine. My pics are not a good comparison as the top was lit with fluorescent light and the bottom, halogen. The color difference with the GDD cars is obvious but not as striking as the picture makes it out to be.

Pete 

Lee, I was like you but I finally gave up on Lionel. The second Lionel Dreyfuss that was cataloged and then cancelled had Boxpok drivers. I preferred the Scullin Disc drivers that were on the 2000 release engine.

This was the nice thing about the 2006 MTH Dryfuss Hudsons. They were available in 4 versions.

1. Boxpok drivers and streamline tender.

2. Scullin Disc drivers and streamline tender.

3. Boxpok drivers and PT tender.

4. Scullin Disc drivers and PT tender.

I preferred the Scullin drivers and PT tender. I figured Lionel would not come out with this version in my lifetime and purchased the MTH engine.

For what it's worth, you will note that by the time the NYC Hudsons began receiving the PT "centipede" tenders (1946 I think), the outer blue stripes where long gone on the locomotive tenders.

Excellent discussion so far gentlemen.

Regarding brass engine weights - I hadn't realized they put weights in the boiler. That probably should have been more obvious to me, lol

Regarding 50 shades of grey  - Sounds like the later MTH cars with the blue stripes would actually match the darker Lionel Dreyfuss. My biggest peeve with them though is that they appear to lack the skirting. As for the GGD set, it's unfortunate it's a lighter shade but I suppose it's not too glaring. The definitive answer would be someone who's actually paired the Lionel Dreyfuss with these cars.

Just for poops and giggles - Can anyone chime in on K-Line's 20th Century Limited cars? They made an 18" set in the blue stripe scheme and a 21" set in the lightning stripe scheme. Both have the skirting advantage over the MTH cars if these catalog photos are accurate.

http://www.legacykline.com/app...ml?p_oem_sku=K-4670J

http://www.legacykline.com/app...ml?p_oem_sku=K-4670D

Following is link to my youtube vid of nyc f-7 abba pulling my nyc 20th century ltd including station sounds car.  I am not sure of the year the engines or cars represent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqYPS9o3Q0I

That set represents the later lightning stripe scheme. I am looking to assemble the early blue stripe scheme.

I am going to wait for Lionel.  First, I have faith in the profit motive: it's been 11 years, their last Dreyfus was TMCC, and the molds and tooling are just sitting there on the shelf, so to speak.  Second, I want Lionel sound, which is just much better.  This week I was running a bunch of locos, testing my new ZW-L.  One I ran was my 241.A (PS3 - not nearly a year old  - and it ran fine - very fine.  But back to back with recent Legacy locos, I was shocked that its sound was just anemic by comparison: yes, its sound is maybe better than PS2 (I don't hear it in the chuffing, but the braking and such sounds are better), but it is nothing like the deep, rich, even sparkling (to use an audiophiel term) and dynamic sound of my Vision and Legacy locos and even the more high end convetnional Lionels from the last year (Atlantic). 

I'm not beating up on MTH and I do not want to start an MTH-Lionel fight here.  My 241.A is the best painted/detailed model locomotive I have, period, and has the best whistle I have ever heard, but Legacy sound recently is nothing short of awesome and I definately want it in a loco I would run alot, and I would run any Dreyfus Hudson I had a lot.

Lee, I agree the Dreyfuss Hudson would be one of Lionel's more obvious choices for a remake. However, after it got cancelled in 2008, I wouldn't keep my hopes up. Why exactly did it get cancelled anyway? 

I have a Lionel Dreyfuss (Smithsonian), and a second run MTH Dreyfuss. I also have a US Hobbies Dreyfuss that was painted. (All of these engines are two rail.) The Lionel Smithsonian and the SECOND RUN MTH are very close in color, almost identical from more than 3 ft.

I posted a NYC color investigation on the NYCSHS web site under "NYC colors". While the color chips I had analyzed for "dark grey" and "light grey" are from the diesel era, I have no doubt that the "light grey" is the color and hue that the Dreyfuss engines were painted,  although paint formulations changed in the interim.

NYCSHS reproduced a digital photo of my three engines side by side under "For the Modeler" on the NYCSHS website, and this same photo in black and white is reproduced in an ad for NYCSHS in one or more recent TCA mailings. I believe it appeared in the 4Q2011 posting.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. So, in actuality, the Lionel die-cast model would be too dark?

So, in actuality, the Lionel die-cast model would be too dark?

Nick

In following the course of this thread, i think what we have learned is that the grey on the first MTH release was too light and that the grey on the Lionel release and the second MTH edition are probably closer to the real thing. The more significant issue i think you are facing is the color and more so, the striping match, ie colors, thickness and stripe position for the matching cars. Whatever you choose  will involve some level of compromise. You probably need to consider what is the most important factor for you.

Ah, I misunderstood then. Really the most important thing to me is that the cars are the blue stripe version. I'm still comparing the available models, and wish I could find more info on the K-Line cars.

Nick, the MTH cars I have are the 20-65094, 20-66094 and the 20-68094 from 2006. They have the blue stripe. The PT tender, which I have, does not have the blue stripe (see Pete's photo of the PT tender above). The MTH engines with the streamline tender do have the blue stripe. The picture of the 5 car set (20-65094) in the catalog shows a dome car but the actual set does not have a dome car. 

The problem with the MTH cars is, and correct me if I'm wrong, they lack the streamline skirting. That's unfortunately a deal-breaker for me, and leaves the K-Line cars as the only viable 18" set unless Weaver ever made a set.

Nick, you are correct, the MTH cars do not have the skirting. That was not a deal breaker for me. On the plus side, I was able to get the 8 cars from SideTrack Hobbies for a very good price.   

Just found good photos of the K-Line cars. They look nice, even at 18":

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-Line-O-Scale-NYC-20th-Century-Limited-5-piece-set-/230880263951?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item35c1893f0f&nma=true&si=Bt%252BtQeeMWG6hhBHO5X9vPWyEdHM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I also found the Weaver 20" cars, but they are disappointingly just stretched out versions of the old school aluminum 15" cars with passenger silhouettes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WEAVER-3RAIL-NEW-YORK-CENTRAL-1938-20th-CENTURY-LTD-20-PASSENGER-CAR-SET-/370746209409?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5652323481

The K-line cars do look good. I guess the only unknown is how well the grey on the cars match the engine.

I agree, it should not be long . Fred

I've changed the title of the thread so maybe we can get more owners of the Lionel model to chime in on the cars they use.

Here's a bit of a lame color comparison between the Lionel model and the K-Line cars. These are from eBay. Looks like the stripes match but the Lionel model is darker than the cars.

I have the original Lionel 15" cars which perfectly match the engine colors. The only issue is that they are too short compared to the scale engine.

  So, which model is painted the most accurate with respect to the "Grey" used on the Prototype? Al