Pacifics doing freight duty

NYC in western NY used them regularly on locals and turn jobs as they got bumped from regular duties by diesels.

Canadian Pacific and Canadian National used pacifics for both freight and passenger service.

johnA

@colorado hirailer posted:

This crosses line between models and prototypes.  There are several recent postings about Williams and Weaver  Pacifics, and l have wondered how many photos have caught class one railroads using Pacifics in freight duty?

Which railroads are you referring to, and which railroad/railroads are you attempting to model?

I have seen a few, vaguely remembered, and am aware short lines used them, in any service, but l prefer Mikados and Cons. for freight.

As did the vast majority of class 1 railroads, back in the days of regular steam service.

Seems not so many of those have been offered.

Both Lionel and MTH have offered many, MANY models of 2-8-2s and 2-8-0s (assuming you are a 3-railer). In 2-Rail Scale, there have been many, MANY versions of all sorts of 2-8-2s and 2-8-0s, over the last 50 years.

The Illinois Central would use their Pacific's in freight service.   As dieselization progressed, the IC rebuilt some Pacific's with 61" drivers for freight service. (Down from 75" drivers.)

Here's also an NYC Pacific pulling a freight.

And for good measure: Boston & Maine.  New Haven. Great Northern.

Rusty

The eastern side of the Central saw Pacifics assigned to freight duties as well as mentioned above on the western side…..Pacifics were dual purpose, serving commuter, lessor trains, and freight once bumped from the named trains…….Pacifics assigned to the Adirondack division were even converted to oil burners certain times of the year, as they worked trough the preserves,……but I’d have to agree with Jack, your question is rather vague, so is there a specific road you’re inquiring about? ….also as Jack has stated, …there’s a plethora of Connies and Mikes available ….in both 2 rail & 3 rail,….so not really sure where you’re going with that either,…

Pat

This is a good topic, since the 4-6-2 is a common model...as are freight cars. 🙂

In the Pennsy book "Set Up Running" the E class Atlantics were mentioned being used on work trains; kinda the same thing, no?

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

This is a good topic, since the 4-6-2 is a common model...as are freight cars. 🙂

In the Pennsy book "Set Up Running" the E class Atlantics were mentioned being used on work trains; kinda the same thing, no?

Well, no not really. Those E class Atlantics, after being bumped from main line passenger service, would have been "down-graded" to such menial jobs as work trains, prior to going to scrap. Also an Atlantic (4-4-2) would probably have made a pretty bad freight engine what with just two large diameter drive wheels.

Mark in Oregon

I model Rocky Mountains east into plains, so roads l was thinking  about would have been RI, CB&Q, MP, C&S, D&RGW, and though not modeled,  ATSF and UP.  While l have known for years, since pre-teen, that HO and O scale had, in brass and zamac, tons of Mikes and Consols. , there were nary a one in three rail, until l discovered a brass USRA Williams Mike, relatively recently, but soon after introduced, and long after l had been wishing for them.  Since then, there have been more. But the Weaver Consol. I hoped for disappeared.

Mikes, etc.,  have been widely used in passenger service, but, apparently l have not noticed Pacifics in freight service and had a mind set that Pacfics were for passengers, as the conversion to smaller drivers, mentioned above, implied to me. The response here corrects that thought!  And makes me take a closer look at freight train photos.  I just saw Southern Mikes and Consols, up close, switching freight at my local childhood station.  Even as a kid l thought Flyer Atlantic freight sets "wrong".   l was wrong! Thanks for all responses.

There are some photos of PRR K4s in freight service, but they are not common and running the K4 in freight service was not ideal nor necessarily desirable.

One photo can be found here.

Among the last steam locomotives used in regular Class 1 railroad service were the Grand Trunk Western's light 4-6-2's on a branchline freight run out of Pontiac to Imlay City, MI, until April 1960. All of the railroads cited by Colorado hirailer ran mixed trains - freight trains with a passenger car or two on the end, behind 4-6-2's. This occurred particularly during the Depression, as railroads consolidated trains to save money.

In the "golden  era" of railroading, if you could imagine it, it probably happened!  Out on 'tube, a tape exists of double headed New York Central Hudsons, on a coal train !!

IIRC the Atlantic Coast Line made fairly extensive use of a fleet of USRA light 4-6-2's in freight service.

Generally 2-8-2s were for freight and 4-6-2s for passenger, but there certainly are examples the other way around. New York Central had 4-6-2s that were primarily built to be freight engines. Canadian National had 2-8-2s that were primarily used on passenger runs between Port Arthur / Fort William Ontario (today's Thunder Bay) and Winnipeg Manitoba.

As noted, as diesel passenger engines bumped steam out of that service, it was not that unusual to find a Pacific (or even an NYC Hudson) on a freight train.

@wjstix posted:

Generally 2-8-2s were for freight and 4-6-2s for passenger, but there certainly are examples the other way around. New York Central had 4-6-2s that were primarily built to be freight engines. Canadian National had 2-8-2s that were primarily used on passenger runs between Port Arthur / Fort William Ontario (today's Thunder Bay) and Winnipeg Manitoba.

As noted, as diesel passenger engines bumped steam out of that service, it was not that unusual to find a Pacific (or even an NYC Hudson) on a freight train.

New York Central had 4-6-2s that were primarily built to be freight engines

can you cite examples of what you wrote please? Inquiring minds would like to know!….thanks!..

Pat

@wjstix posted:

Generally 2-8-2s were for freight and 4-6-2s for passenger, but there certainly are examples the other way around. New York Central had 4-6-2s that were primarily built to be freight engines.

Good grief! Please provide the historic support for THAT statement. I'm also sure that the New York Central System Historical & Technical Society would just love to learn more.

Canadian National had 2-8-2s that were primarily used on passenger runs between Port Arthur / Fort William Ontario (today's Thunder Bay) and Winnipeg Manitoba.

As noted, as diesel passenger engines bumped steam out of that service, it was not that unusual to find a Pacific (or even an NYC Hudson) on a freight train.

Well,,,,,,,,yes it WAS sort of "unusual"!

I'd be interested to know waht class of NYC pacifics were built for Freight service.    I know the Canadians had a lot of these but they were built with smaller drivers for dual and/or freight service.

Main Line passenger locos like the PRR K4 (and nearly all K Class) had  80 inch drivers.    This gave them the speed capability to run 100 MPH or more if needed, but it also reduced the tonnage they could haul.     In Freight service a passenger loco would tend to be slippery and not capable of drag freight work.

On the other side, passenger locos were generally equipped with different brake systems (in many cases), signal lines to communicate with the conductor in the rear, and steam lines going back to heat the passenger cars.    Freight engines had none of these features and so were generally not used in passenger service unless to rescue or fill in.

I would guess as steam wound down, there were instances of a passenger loco doing something on a small freight.   But I think as a rule, a pacific, especially with 80 inch drivers, was reserved for passenger service.

I don’t think the NYC built pacifics for freight,  but used them for freight as newer engines bumped them to less glamorous roles, towards the end of their service lives. JohnA

The B&O would use  P-7 Pacific's for pushers out of Benwood West Virginia on coal trains bound for the Lake Erie docks near Lorain Ohio. The use of 4-6-2's was surprisingly common out of Benwood.

Wow...a P-7 as a pusher. Interesting, to say the least!

Mark in Oregon

"In the fall of 1910 an order was placed for Brooks for twenty five engines numbered 3000-3024....While they were classified as freight engines they still were equipped with steam heat and air signal lines."

"As they arrived from the builder they were assigned to handle freight tonnage on the Hudson Division. Their satisfactory performance made the Motive Power people realize they had designed a very remarkable locomotive."

"The Kaye-Elevens" by F. Ray Knight,  2Q 1981 "Central Headlight" NYCSHS

"K" was New York Central System designation for a 4-6-2. IIRC Bowser made an HO kit of this engine at one time.

https://nycshs.files.wordpress...-1981q2the-k-11s.pdf

Out here in the west, Southern Pacific used Pacific class for short freight and passenger. Pacific's like 2472, operational today, pulled the commuter trains between San Francisco and San Jose. They were called upon to pull short freights on branch lines and main lines and shared this duty with Northern GS series.

Here's a tidbit - On both the SP Pacific's and Northern GS series they would move the number board from mid boiler to the front above the smoke box and back again. I'm not totally sure why SP did this, but in many of the photos I've seen, for freight the number board tended to be mounted mid boiler and for passenger service mounted above the smoke box. Does anybody here no for sure the reason?

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Here's a tidbit - On both the SP Pacific's and Northern GS series they would move the number board from mid boiler to the front above the smoke box and back again. I'm not totally sure why SP did this, but in many of the photos I've seen, for freight the number board tended to be mounted mid boiler and for passenger service mounted above the smoke box. Does anybody here no for sure the reason?

The story I heard was to make the numberboards more visible at night, away from the glow of the headlight.  Might be urban legend, though.

Rusty

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Out here in the west, Southern Pacific used Pacific class for short freight and passenger. Pacific's like 2472, operational today, pulled the commuter trains between San Francisco and San Jose. They were called upon to pull short freights on branch lines and main lines and shared this duty with Northern GS series.

Here's a tidbit - On both the SP Pacific's and Northern GS series they would move the number board from mid boiler to the front above the smoke box and back again. I'm not totally sure why SP did this, but in many of the photos I've seen, for freight the number board tended to be mounted mid boiler and for passenger service mounted above the smoke box. Does anybody here no for sure the reason?

The reason for the relocation of the Train Number Indicators from the front to halfway back on the skyline caseing, was due to the wayside station agents, and other trains, to see the train number account the bright headlight & Mars Light on the GS class locomotives. When the GS-4 class Daylights were delivered in 1941, with the Mars Light, wayside visibility of the train numbers became even more of a problem, thus the relocation. Other SP steam power without the Mars Light, retained the Train Number Indicators in the forward position.

@wjstix posted:

"In the fall of 1910 an order was placed for Brooks for twenty five engines numbered 3000-3024....While they were classified as freight engines they still were equipped with steam heat and air signal lines."

"As they arrived from the builder they were assigned to handle freight tonnage on the Hudson Division. Their satisfactory performance made the Motive Power people realize they had designed a very remarkable locomotive."

"The Kaye-Elevens" by F. Ray Knight,  2Q 1981 "Central Headlight" NYCSHS

"K" was New York Central System designation for a 4-6-2. IIRC Bowser made an HO kit of this engine at one time.

https://nycshs.files.wordpress...-1981q2the-k-11s.pdf

Right you are; I built one once, and liked the low-ish, spoked drivers, especially after the much larger, disc-type on the Mantua model. Thought it looked cool...

Nice link, BTW...

Mark in Oregon

My favorite, what l considered oddball, use of a Pacific, was on the Little River logging road, in today's s Great Smokies Nat. Park.  In addition to that 2-4-4-2 l have long desired in three rail, the L R. ordered and operated a Pacific on it's logging trains.  That is what brought this question originally to mind . I have seen that Pacific in its shed several years ago doing tourist duty in SW Mich. so it can be seen and believed.  I just had trouble with a Pacific on a logging road.

@colorado hirailer posted:

My favorite, what l considered oddball, use of a Pacific, was on the Little River logging road, in today's s Great Smokies Nat. Park.  In addition to that 2-4-4-2 l have long desired in three rail, the L R. ordered and operated a Pacific on it's logging trains.  That is what brought this question originally to mind . I have seen that Pacific in its shed several years ago doing tourist duty in SW Mich. so it can be seen and believed.  I just had trouble with a Pacific on a logging road.

For what it's with, that was/is the smallest standard gauge Pacific ever made. Thus, it was ideal for that railroad.

Santa Fe had a large fleet of 2-6-2's right up to the end of steam. They pulled passenger at first, but ended up mostly in freight, work train, & local service. Not much difference between a 4-6-2 and a 2-6-2, and I have seen plenty of photos of AT&SF Pacifics working freight trains & even as helpers.