Passenger car lights burning too hot?

Go to LED's, better lighting and you'll never have a heat related issue again.

Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit

Jim Katz posted:

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BTW, anyone have the part number for these bulbs?

Please let me know what you think or have done.

Those look like MTH CI-0000009 which retail for about $1 available from the usual suspects.

But as GRJ says, consider switching to LED lighting using the LED strips.  This will require some electronics for which there have been countless OGR threads with DIY or buy-it options.

As for other options. 

Assuming your bulbs are the wire-terminal type where you can bend the wires and extract the bulb from the plastic base, you might be able to find higher-voltage (say, 24V) wire-terminal bulb that you can retrofit.

When a similar discussion came up about plug-and-play LED replacements for wire-terminal bulbs, this one from Bulbtown came up...but I don't know if it actually fits or if anyone actually tried one.  Many LED replacements are DC-only; this one says AC or DC which is more difficult to find in LEDs.  Kind of spendy.

I don't recommend this but I've made my own LED replacement bulbs using the wire-terminal base.  Here's a recycled photo from the build instructions - which, again, I can't imagine anyone else actually doing!

If nothing else, the take-away may be that you might be able to salvage JUST the base of a burnt-out bulb, insert and fold-over your own wire-terminal.  Now you have a "plug" that fits into your existing lighting wiring.  In other words you don't have to splice into the existing truck wiring.  I've used this method on bayonet bulbs so as NOT to alter the factory wiring of the bulb-powered car.  So as illustrated below, 2-wires from the "plug" go to the LED electronics.

Stan2004, I like your suggestion and I am seriously looking at that as a solution.  The LED strip lighting would be ok in in a more expensive type of car, like a 70 footer aluminum.  But $40 per car is a little steep when I don't think the cars cost more than $50.  The LED plug in is also interesting.  Thanks for posting that.

That's not $40 per car. The kit does two cars. If you buy just the regulators, it is just over $10 per car. I just got a 300 led roll for $2.99 shipped, so a 15 led strip for a car is about $.20. If you can solder, I think it is well worth doing your $40 cars. And, there will be no fire involved.

Jim,

Town & Country Hobbies has those bulbs in an 18volt version

$1 for singles better for 50

If you go with LED lighting your transformer will think you for less wattage needed and a cooler operating transformer. AND your plastic people in your plastic cars will think you added A/C to the cars and will keep the windows closed.

After switching over to LED's in my O gauge cars and engines. I have started replacing all the 60 watt 120v lights in my house to LED.  ( I don't know if it is saving money 60 watts vs 9 watts each. My kids and grandsons know how to turn on the lights but still do not know how to turn them off (ages 5, 13, 38 plus) So the 120v LED lights make me not as upside when they leave the lights on, so I run cooler),

I was laughing about the house lights comment Keith!   I'm called the lamp-unlighter in my house, I'm constantly walking around and turning out lights!  In our new house, I'm installing all LED lighting, I'm about 90% done, just a few oddball fixtures and bulbs to do and I'll hopefully be saving lots of money.

Moonman posted:

Jim,

Town & Country Hobbies has those bulbs in an 18volt version

$1 for singles better for 50

MTH states their replacement bulb is 18V.  I looked up Town and Country and their bulbs don't seem to have the #30 wire leads.

The MTH truck pickups in the cars are wired in parallel which is nice because it provides a more constant power to the individual lights if they can collect power from both trucks at the same time.   This however complicates putting a diode in-line because I would have to dismantle the car to map out the circuit.  

I am leaning heavily toward modifying the plugs in the ceiling socket to bring the wires out a short distance and locate a diode in one of the feeds to the bulb.   I can and do solder quite well.  The thermostatically controlled SunFounder SF-986 is my new weapon of choice.   I would remove the exiting bulbs (as suggested above) and place in new wires a little longer and work outside the socket.  There is lots of room in the roof rafter to tuck the diode and excess wire.  I could make a few extras as replacements.  I should get pretty good at it after making 12 of them.

I would need some very light gauge solid bare wire in 30 AWG to make this happen.   Anyone have a source for that small wire?  

The whole fun of this hobby is messing around with your stuff.  I am not concerned about keeping my stuff stock or pristine or whatever.  I like to have fun and make it work the way I like it.   I remember when I bought a set of Lionel F3 diesels in 2002.  That beautifully detailed set was ruined by those stupid bright wheat bulbs in the cab.  That was an easy fix by wiring them in series, but why should you have to do that?  It's my stuff and I like to mess around making it better.  The next generation will have to do their own thing. 

Jim Katz posted:

I would need some very light gauge solid bare wire in 30 AWG to make this happen.   Anyone have a source for that small wire? 

For fixed wiring inside locomotives and cars, I use #30 wire-wrap wire.  It's pretty easy to work with, and I just stick it down with a dab of CA adhesive inside the shells.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was laughing about the house lights comment Keith!   I'm called the lamp-unlighter in my house, I'm constantly walking around and turning out lights!  In our new house, I'm installing all LED lighting, I'm about 90% done, just a few oddball fixtures and bulbs to do and I'll hopefully be saving lots of money.

When you go into their room after they have gone to school and work and you find a table lamp with a 60 watt bulb with a baseball cap over the top of the shade that was on all night. I was as hot as the baseball cap.  The table lamp now was a 6 watt LED and NO Baseball cap over the top of it.  The LED's may not save me money but just may save my house from fire.  

P.S. The wife has most of the control in the house and approx 5 foot around the outside, I have 100% control at the far corner of the property.

CBS072 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was laughing about the house lights comment Keith!   I'm called the lamp-unlighter in my house, I'm constantly walking around and turning out lights!  In our new house, I'm installing all LED lighting, I'm about 90% done, just a few oddball fixtures and bulbs to do and I'll hopefully be saving lots of money.

When you go into their room after they have gone to school and work and you find a table lamp with a 60 watt bulb with a baseball cap over the top of the shade that was on all night. I was as hot as the baseball cap.  The table lamp now was a 6 watt LED and NO Baseball cap over the top of it.  The LED's may not save me money but just may save my house from fire.  

P.S. The wife has most of the control in the house and approx 5 foot around the outside, I have 100% control at the far corner of the property.

For sure LED is the only way to go and they are betting better all the time.  Kids with old incandescent bulbs, candles, and electric heaters are a menace.

Absolutely on the LED lighting for trains and your home.  I am 100% LED in the house.  Not quite there on the trains yet. 

Jim

Originally posted by Jim Katz:

I need some very light gauge solid bare wire in 30 AWG to make this happen.  Anyone have a source for that small wire? 

Yes Cotact Model train Software. they sold me 28 AWG 50ft spool of that wire!

Jim Katz posted:

I would need some very light gauge solid bare wire in 30 AWG to make this happen.   Anyone have a source for that small wire?  

Like GRJ, I routinely use #30 solid wire-wrap with Kynar insulation - using "Kynar 30" or something like that in an eBay or web search will usually get you right to what you want.  Depending on what you end up doing, you may need a few cm of insulation and Kynar has the nice property of not shriveling/shrinking at the slightest hint of heat from nearby soldering.  Most are also silver-plated which can help when soldering.

OTOH, if you're just looking for solid bare wire, you might already have some 22 AWG stranded lying around.  Many are 7x30 = 7 strands of 30 AWG.  You might even find it at a local hardware store sold by the foot.  I'd think 1 foot would be a lifetime supply!

Not to detract from all the well documented advantages of LED lighting, but the first thing I would do is order a few of the Town & Country Hobby 18 V bulbs and give them a try. Simple plug n play, no rewiring, and 3 bucks a car. What could be easier than that? 

Oh, and I am a huge believer in LED house lighting too, having converted all tube fluorescents to LED, and all other screw in incandescents and CFL's to LED about 2 years ago. I don't think our power bills have gone down much, if any, because lighting is I guess a small user compared to other power hogs in the house. Oh well, at least they start immediately, and the light is much whiter/brighter.

Rod

Rod Stewart posted:

Not to detract from all the well documented advantages of LED lighting, but the first thing I would do is order a few of the Town & Country Hobby 18 V bulbs and give them a try. Simple plug n play, no rewiring, and 3 bucks a car. What could be easier than that? 

Oh, and I am a huge believer in LED house lighting too, having converted all tube fluorescents to LED, and all other screw in incandescents and CFL's to LED about 2 years ago. I don't think our power bills have gone down much, if any, because lighting is I guess a small user compared to other power hogs in the house. Oh well, at least they start immediately, and the light is much whiter/brighter.

Rod

Hi Rod:

I rather like the look of bulbs in coaches.  I also like not having to do significant retrofits on all my Amfleets.  The T&CH bulbs are an intriguing and inexpensive idea, IF they have bulbs that fit.  However, Mr. Katz states above that the MTH bulbs are 18v, which would gain us nothing.  I would be curious if the bulbs in the MTH coaches are natively 14v or not, (I have not looked into it yet).  I am not sure if I believe what I see on MTH's site, as they have numerous typos.  However, even for an inexpensive solution I would want to ensure I knew all of the facts.

I like the LED solution, and may end up doing that anyway if I already have the coaches cracked open.  However, if there is a bulb solution that offers less heat, I might be more inclined to go that way.

Are melting bulb holders a common problem?  I run my MTH passenger cars at 18v all the time with no melting or burn outs.  I have never heard about this in the 12 years since I got back into our great hobby.  Is it possible the problem isn't the bulbs but a something causing them to run hotter than normal?

Steam Crazy posted:

Are melting bulb holders a common problem?  I run my MTH passenger cars at 18v all the time with no melting or burn outs.  I have never heard about this in the 12 years since I got back into our great hobby.  Is it possible the problem isn't the bulbs but a something causing them to run hotter than normal?

You make a very good point.  These cars are 0-27 cars that are about 20 years old.  Now it could be they came from the factory with only 12 volt bulbs.  MTH did not really get going in command control until DCS came out 2002.  No way of knowing what these are rated at because they are so tiny.  The new ones I have ordered are supposed to be 18 volts.   

I did a test with the exiting bulbs and at 14 volts they run at 130 degrees F.  If the new bulbs run cooler at the same voltage that will prove what you are suggesting.  I am looking for an operating temp of about 98 degrees.

Thanks for adding this to the discussion as it may save me a ton of work.

Jim

Jim, I think you're smart to try 18v bulbs before going to a more expensive option.  Another thought - have you tested your track voltage?  Is it possible your transformer is putting out more than 18v?  Maybe one of the technicians out there can answer this question.

John

Jim Katz posted:

Moonman posted:

Jim,

Town & Country Hobbies has those bulbs in an 18volt version

$1 for singles better for 50

MTH states their replacement bulb is 18V.  I looked up Town and Country and their bulbs don't seem to have the #30 wire leads.

 

What are these 10-849-318 ?

Steam Crazy posted:

Are melting bulb holders a common problem?  I run my MTH passenger cars at 18v all the time with no melting or burn outs.  I have never heard about this in the 12 years since I got back into our great hobby.  Is it possible the problem isn't the bulbs but a something causing them to run hotter than normal?

Out of curiosity, which coaches do you run?  I run the older plated Amfleets, and I do notice the roof gets warm with use.  Obviously a bulb generates heat, but I never left them on long enough to see how much, or if they would do damage.  For a buck a bulb, I would at least try it in my wire coach to see.  The MTH MP54 sets embedded a bulb in the headlight 'glass', and it warped fairly quickly on 17v.

Mr. Katz:  What did you use to measure your temperatures?  Just curious.

I have 60' Railking and 70' Premier streamliners and madisons.  Most date back to 2000-2005, the newest set was probably came out about 2012.  Like I said, I have been fortunate to have no problem except blinking lights.  I solved it by oiling the rollers and the roller mounts that slide up and down.

John

Pantenary posted:

Steam Crazy posted:

Are melting bulb holders a common problem?  I run my MTH passenger cars at 18v all the time with no melting or burn outs.  I have never heard about this in the 12 years since I got back into our great hobby.  Is it possible the problem isn't the bulbs but a something causing them to run hotter than normal?

Out of curiosity, which coaches do you run?  I run the older plated Amfleets, and I do notice the roof gets warm with use.  Obviously a bulb generates heat, but I never left them on long enough to see how much, or if they would do damage.  For a buck a bulb, I would at least try it in my wire coach to see.  The MTH MP54 sets embedded a bulb in the headlight 'glass', and it warped fairly quickly on 17v.

Mr. Katz:  What did you use to measure your temperatures?  Just curious.

I have a Craftsman Digital Multi Meter with a temperature probe.  I bought it to test the cylinder temps on my Cummins Diesel.  ( A cool cylinder would indicate a plugged injector.) That's the only reason I have it.  The probe is about 3 feet long with a temp sensor on the end.  I held it against the bulb with finger pressure.  I set the voltage at 14 volts on my test track.  I imagine at 18 volts I could not use my finger.  My purpose was to see if putting a 1N4001 diode in line would reduce the heat as well as light output.  It knocked it down to 98 reduced the output nicely.   Whereas without the diode I was getting 128-130 F.  At 18 volts it could go as high as 150 I would imagine without the diode. (too hot for my finger) Even when I forget to reduce the track voltage (as tested with MTH hand held and analog meters in my panel) I have never melted the roof of the cars, it's just the bulbs turn black and fuse themselves into the white plastic bulb holder.  The sockets in the roof remain OK.

Question:  Was the bulb reading 98 because of my finger pressure on the diode in place?  I don't like coincidences.   Maybe the diode had the temp even less and my finger raised it up?  But I would be happy with 98.

The coaches are Rail King 4 Car Set # 30-6244, and 2 Car Set # 30-6245.  

Here is my prototype of reduced output wheat bulb.  It only took about 40 minutes to make this one.  I hope the other 11 that I may need will go quicker.  This bulb should last me the rest of life as it only burns at half the voltage and produces no more than 98 degrees of heat.  The result is a nice warm glow, that I believe is what we are looking for when we look in train windows with people inside.  Someone who actually knows what they were doing could probably make this better and quicker, but I'm retired and have the time to do stuff like this now. 

Here is the difference in the output.

Idea. It appears there are an even number of bulbs per car.  If you modified each bulb in the same way (with the diode "band" facing the same direction), install every other bulb flipped over so-to-speak.  In this way, the AC voltage will be used equally on the positive and negative half-cycles.  Your AC transformer will thank you for the consideration!

stan2004 posted:

Idea. It appears there are an even number of bulbs per car.  If you modified each bulb in the same way (with the diode "band" facing the same direction), install every other bulb flipped over so-to-speak.  In this way, the AC voltage will be used equally on the positive and negative half-cycles.  Your AC transformer will thank you for the consideration!

Sir, you are obviously a person who understands this much better than me and I will follow your recommendation.   Thank you.

I’ve installed the new LED replacement bulb designed for passenger cars. They work great. They are not as nice as the warm LED strips but will take away the heat and amperage problems. They still look like the original bulb shining.

Tamiya X-26 will give them a nice glow.  

John H posted:

Tamiya X-26 will give them a nice glow.  

That is paint, if I am correct.   Will not solve the heat problem.  The bulbs are melting the sockets and surely will not do the paint any good at all.

romiller49 posted:

I’ve installed the new LED replacement bulb designed for passenger cars. They work great. They are not as nice as the warm LED strips but will take away the heat and amperage problems. They still look like the original bulb shining.

The problem with LED is the quality of the light.  Certain situations you don't mind because of the tremendous energy savings and the increased longevity of service.  But in my pass cars I want a nice warm glow which only comes from incandescent lighting at low voltage.

I should have clarified. I was talking about painting the leds to get a warmer light. The upper left window is the same led strip as the others, only painted with the Tamiya paint. I have six of Gunrunnerjohn's regulators in passenger cars, and highly recommend them.

John H makes a good point.  I always choose my 5meter strips of led by color temperature. Around 2700 to 3000 for passenger cars, houses, etc. and maybe crank them down from there to taste;  over my workbench 4500 to 5000 cause I need good bright light to work.  This guide has the basics.

Great chart, Ted. I might add that the billboard light in the upper right of my picture is the same bulb that I took out of the MTH cars when I switched to leds, and is pretty close to the painted led in the house.

I believe my problem with the lights is solved.   The current run of stock from MTH for these lights appear to be 18 volts and they look much better as far as not being too bright.  The part number is CI0000009.

I don't know how one can actually determine what the design voltage supply for a lamp is if it's not written on the bulb.  I am just judging by brightness and time will tell about melting.  For 12 bucks I'm willing to take the risk.

TedW posted:

I always choose my 5meter strips of led by color temperature. Around 2700 to 3000 for passenger cars, houses, etc. and maybe crank them down from there to taste...

 

Great info here; I'm going to save this topic.

I model the late 40s when many passenger trains were a mix of older heavyweight cars with incandescent lighting and new streamliners with brighter fluorescent lighting.  To show this different, when I upgrade to LEDs to will use warm white in the HWs and cool white (which is 4000K on my charts) in the streamliners.  Maybe not a big thing but I think it will look good.