Pennsy Passenger Sharks

History:

1.  Weaver BP 20 (Brass)  was originally offered as an A-B set.  A powered, B non-powered.

2. B units were, (eventually) powered, many wanted the additional power. My B-unit is non-powered.

3. There was an additional,(powered), A unit available.  Pennsy ran A-B-A sets on the Long Island RR.

4. Color was red or green.   There were probably less green units.

5. A unit, 20 1/2", B unit slightly shorter.  Even as a shelf model, it takes some space.  Non-functional couplers between the, A and B, units, Front, (A-unit), and Rear (B-unit) couplers  were TMCC controlled.

6. Front nose coupler had an interesting move-able truck mounting.

7. TMCC speed control. Without opening the model, it may be EOB from, then, TAS, Train America Studio.

8. There were interesting powered marker lights.

9. Pennsy Radio Phone antenna, on the A-unit.

When I get home I can post pics of both noses for you.  Also, someone already did what you are thinking about doing.  Maybe someone can find the link.

Here is an old post concerning building a passenger shark from freight sharks.

Shark Building

Here are some nose comparisons.  You can see that the passenger shark's nose is longer.  Double click to get bigger pictures.

@Magicland posted:

Every time I see a couple of RF-16 sharks show up at a decent price on an auction site, I have to fight the urge to pick them up to piece them together into a DR-6-4-2000 (or as the PRR called it, the BP-20). Sure, Weaver made nice ones in brass, but they're almost impossible to find, and when they are, the price is exorbitant. It'd be a fairly easy thing to make, just stick together an RF-16 A & B unit, with some roof detail removed. The trucks from a PA-1 or DL-109 (whichever shows up cheaper) will work fine, though the chassis likely needs extended about 3" (from the PA-1), just like it did for the CNJ DRX-6-4-2000. I believe despite the shark nose, the BP-20 was the same length as the unsharked DR-6-4-2000, at 80'.

The main (and probably ONLY issue) stopping this, is I believe the actual "shark" nose on the BP-20 is longer than on the RF-16, and I have no idea how much, and where. If it were simply splicing in some length beyond the nose, no problem, but I think it's actually the tapering shark profile that needs elongated. I was able to overcome similar issues when I converted Centipede shells (which taper from the cab doors on) to a DRX-6-4-2000 (which are straight from the doors to the windshields) with body filler, but it's one thing to remove a taper from a nose that's straight from top to bottom, and another to elongate one with a "shark" profile.

Anyone have any thoughts on the feasibility of this? Or should I just save up for the next time a Weaver brass one shows up?

I want an additional set to my Weaver models. Im using Williams shells and PA-1 trucks. The difference in the nose is 6 inches more for the BP20. An article in Rails Northeast was done in HO on kitbashing Modelpower RF16 shells to the BP20. Just be advised if you follow the kitbash article. You may end up with 10 grills on the top rather than The 11 for the BP20a unit.

I have collected all the parts to complete my project two Lionel Alco PAs for trucks and motors and two AB sets of Weaver RF-16s when I get the Williams PRR L1 off the bench the BP-20 is next.    Ron your photos are truly a god send thanks for taking the trouble. I have a jig for my bandsaw which keeps the body shell perpendicular the the blade and makes a very clean cut. My plan is to make two perhaps three slices off the nose and use spacers to extend it at the top to get the six inch extension along the hood then use putty to fill in the gaps. Should take very little filling and sanding. What concerns me more than the nose is the grill detail. I need a close up photo of the grill and an exact measurement of the length as well as the length of the short one at the rear.  I wonder why Baldwin did not extend each of the long grills a couple of inches to do away with the short one ?  BTW, Horseshoe, there are 10 grills 9 long and the short one at the rear on the A unit one more long grill on the B unit. I likely won't make a B unit.   Wish I could post photos of the real BP-20 I have lifted about 50 off the www for reference. (copyright).                                   j

I suppose it is possible.  I just converted a PA to an Erie-Built, only because I had sides and roof for the PA and no nose, and an F-M nose with no body.  Being a 2-railer, I kinda forgot to count the grilles and roof openings.  Good thing - they don’t match.

PA fans know that model noses often do not match the real thing - but the surprise for me was how inaccurate my spare F-M nose was!  And then, I discovered that the real thing had two different noses - in addition to two different windshield configurations.

Anyway, go for it!   You will have fun, and very few modelers will be counting your grilles (or noticing the difference between Alco and Baldwin trucks).

You know, if I were a 3-railer, I would shorten the end result so it didn’t look longer than an 18” passenger car.

@bob2 posted:

I suppose it is possible.  I just converted a PA to an Erie-Built, only because I had sides and roof for the PA and no nose, and an F-M nose with no body.  Being a 2-railer, I kinda forgot to count the grilles and roof openings.  Good thing - they don’t match.

PA fans know that model noses often do not match the real thing - but the surprise for me was how inaccurate my spare F-M nose was!  And then, I discovered that the real thing had two different noses - in addition to two different windshield configurations.

Anyway, go for it!   You will have fun, and very few modelers will be counting your grilles (or noticing the difference between Alco and Baldwin trucks).

You know, if I were a 3-railer, I would shorten the end result so it didn’t look longer than an 18” passenger car.

Bob,  Baldwin, FM and Alco all used the General Steel A1A three axle passenger trucks. FM used the G.S. A1A truck as well as a three axle truck of their own design on the Erie Built passenger locos. General Steel was co-owned by Alco and Baldwin. FM had two different Cab units the C-liner primarily a freight loco and the Erie Built passenger loco. The C-Liner had two axle trucks of their own design but they also had a passenger version of the C-Liner which had a General Steel A1A truck on the rear. I know that New Haven had some of these five axle C-Liners, not sure who else might have used them.  The Erie Built  had A1A trucks both front and rear.  Though the nose of both of these locos look similar the Erie Built nose was longer than the C-Liner, much like Alco FA, short nose freight and PA, long nose, passenger locos.   I thought about building my BP-20s a couple of inches short but finally decided to keep them 80' as my streamline PRR cars are 20 inch cars.          j

BP20 had two power units.  One of the problems was the reliability of the ??Baldwin motor??, In addition to the space, needed for the power, there was a Steam generator, rear of unit, heat, passenger cars.

sign me up for a BP-20 in PRR tuscan by lionel or 3rd rail---wonder where the weaver molds went? atlas or lionel?

Weaver's was a brass model, there are no molds to have gone anywhere.

@Magicland posted:

Every time I see a couple of RF-16 sharks show up at a decent price on an auction site, I have to fight the urge to pick them up to piece them together into a DR-6-4-2000 (or as the PRR called it, the BP-20). Sure, Weaver made nice ones in brass, but they're almost impossible to find, and when they are, the price is exorbitant. It'd be a fairly easy thing to make, just stick together an RF-16 A & B unit, with some roof detail removed. The trucks from a PA-1 or DL-109 (whichever shows up cheaper) will work fine, though the chassis likely needs extended about 3" (from the PA-1), just like it did for the CNJ DRX-6-4-2000. I believe despite the shark nose, the BP-20 was the same length as the unsharked DR-6-4-2000, at 80'.

The main (and probably ONLY issue) stopping this, is I believe the actual "shark" nose on the BP-20 is longer than on the RF-16, and I have no idea how much, and where. If it were simply splicing in some length beyond the nose, no problem, but I think it's actually the tapering shark profile that needs elongated. I was able to overcome similar issues when I converted Centipede shells (which taper from the cab doors on) to a DRX-6-4-2000 (which are straight from the doors to the windshields) with body filler, but it's one thing to remove a taper from a nose that's straight from top to bottom, and another to elongate one with a "shark" profile.

Anyone have any thoughts on the feasibility of this? Or should I just save up for the next time a Weaver brass one shows up?

I understand your urge.  And I have been told (by someone involved with the Weaver production effort) that they were not particularly great runners.  Maybe owners can speak to that.  Yes, when they do come up the price is pretty high.  There were not that many of them made and they are beautiful.  I remember seeing and handling one at Weaver's York booth.  Impressive!!!

I think your "grafting" solution might be the best one.

Just my $0.02.

George

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I want an additional set to my Weaver models. Im using Williams shells and PA-1 trucks. The difference in the nose is 6 inches more for the BP20. An article in Rails Northeast was done in HO on kitbashing Modelpower RF16 shells to the BP20. Just be advised if you follow the kitbash article. You may end up with 10 grills on the top rather than The 11 for the BP20a unit.

I'm assuming that's 6" 1:1 scale. That's 1/8 inch to you and me, that'd probably only be noticeable if it were sitting next to a Weaver BP-20 (IF Weaver got it correct, though I assume they did). Now, as you HAVE the Weavers to set it next to, it's probably more important, but I'm thinking throwing that 1/8" in elsewhere might be the way for me to go. So many options, so little time! At least it sounds like something I can start acquiring the parts for the next time I see a good deal on RF-16s or their shells. Now to figure out a good use for PA-1 shells. I've already got one sitting around from making my CNJ DRX-6-4-2000...

This is the only diesel locomotive that PRR sent the NY&LB to serve its last days that I do not have.  Considering they served longer than the PAs this is a gap in my collection.  Finding a Weaver one would be nice, but I can be patient on that one.  I'd be curious to see the results if you decide to bash one.

Any idea what year they started shipping them off to the NY&LB? The 2nd DGLE paint (with the nose whiskers) is my favorite, but I can't confirm that any ever trod through South Amboy wearing that. I have seen color photos of DGLE single stripe, Tuscan 5 stripe (as late as March, 64), and Tuscan single stripe being there. I can't tell in B&W photos if a unit is DGLE or Tuscan...

I find this to be a fascinating thread. I have a Weaver BP-20 as well as a Weaver RF-16 A/B. The BP-20 is perhaps the heaviest loco I own, but as someone said not a great runner. The RF-16 is conventional. Both are brass, among the most beautiful locos in my collection.

These guys are my most beautiful shelf queens, along with a MTH Centipede. I love them! They just don't work for me as operating locomotives.

I have a big pike, 25 x 55 feet, with mainline curves of 128 and 096. Big locos look fine on my pike. I find I just enjoy GP9s and F3s hauling 15 car trains.

That BP-20 sure is a looker!

Jan

@HiramO posted:

I find this to be a fascinating thread. I have a Weaver BP-20 as well as a Weaver RF-16 A/B. The BP-20 is perhaps the heaviest loco I own, but as someone said not a great runner. The RF-16 is conventional. Both are brass, among the most beautiful locos in my collection.

Are you sure those RF-16s are Weaver ?   They sure look like Williams brass RF16s with the Blomberg trucks that Williams used as opposed to the AAR type B road truck which are on all the other models of the RF-16s as well as the ones Baldwin built.  One redeeming thing about the Williams RF-16s is they had 500 series can motors as opposed to the 385 motors in all the other three rail RF-16s. So, one powered unit with Mabuchi 500 motors pulls as well as two units powered with 4, 385 motors.   Fairly easy to add ERR TMCC boards to the RF-16 as they have plenty of room between the motors. That green BP-20 is spectacular !       j

You could well be correct...  I believe they are stamped W.R.L.

Nice history of PRRs use of the BP20s can be found here (including some nice drawings) : https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/...senger-shark-article

Near as I can tell, they hit the NY&LB in early 1956. Pennsy started switching to the DGLE single-stripe paint in 1955, though I can't see an unpopular unit soon to be exiled to the NY&LB being front of the line for a repaint, so some 5 stripe DGLE sharks may have made the journey. And apparently only the BP20s that got downgraded to freight gearing (5784A-5887A, 5780B, 5782B, 5784B, & 5786B, designated BF16z) received the DGLE single stripe paint. 5770 and 5771 had all rectangular grills, rather than sloped ones at the beginning and end.

@HiramO posted:

You could well be correct...  I believe they are stamped W.R.L.

W.R.L. = Williams Reproductions Limited.

@JohnActon posted:

Are you sure those RF-16s are Weaver ?   They sure look like Williams brass RF16s with the Blomberg trucks that Williams used as opposed to the AAR type B road truck which are on all the other models of the RF-16s as well as the ones Baldwin built.  One redeeming thing about the Williams RF-16s is they had 500 series can motors as opposed to the 385 motors in all the other three rail RF-16s. So, one powered unit with Mabuchi 500 motors pulls as well as two units powered with 4, 385 motors.   Fairly easy to add ERR TMCC boards to the RF-16 as they have plenty of room between the motors. That green BP-20 is spectacular !       j

Those RF16s are Williams with the non swinging solid pilot [no coupler]. Weaver RF16s had the pilot "cut" under the nose frame and lobster claw coupler protruding. Newer plastic Williams had the whole die cast pilot swing and Lobster claw protruding.

@Magicland posted:

Nice history of PRRs use of the BP20s can be found here (including some nice drawings) : https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/...senger-shark-article

Near as I can tell, they hit the NY&LB in early 1956. Pennsy started switching to the DGLE single-stripe paint in 1955, though I can't see an unpopular unit soon to be exiled to the NY&LB being front of the line for a repaint, so some 5 stripe DGLE sharks may have made the journey. And apparently only the BP20s that got downgraded to freight gearing (5784A-5887A, 5780B, 5782B, 5784B, & 5786B, designated BF16z) received the DGLE single stripe paint. 5770 and 5771 had all rectangular grills, rather than sloped ones at the beginning and end.

BP20s did arrive on the NY&LB in April of 1956 at the same time as the ALCo PAs after a few trial runs by E7s.  Neither was very successful in commuter service, but the BP20s lasted until 1964 when E7s returned permanently. 

As for paint, the PRR adopted 5 stripe Tuscan Red in 1952 for passenger diesels and all BP20s that stayed in passenger service got that paint scheme prior to going to the NY&LB.  BP20s on the NY&LB eventually received the wide stripe scheme with 16" Roman letters in Tuscan Red.  As an aside, like the E7s and the ALCo PAs, the BP20s also had their number boards replaced with the PRR offset homemade ones when they got repainted into Tuscan Red. 

Here is the link to an earlier discussion of these:

https://ogrforum.com/...-20-sharknose-diesel

And the Weaver catalog information is below.  I purchased the first two models to get a Tuscan Red 5-stripe ABA (all powered) for a 1952-1956 era set.  It is really heavy!  It pulls 12 GGD aluminum passenger cars, plus several 3rd rail brass and Weaver head end cars.  It probably could pull more than 20 scale aluminum/brass passenger cars, although I have not tried.  I also had a nice factory weathered (slightly) AB set too, that I sold years ago.  I think that one had a dummy B unit.

@20centuryhudson posted:

sign me up for a BP-20 in PRR tuscan by lionel or 3rd rail---wonder where the weaver molds went? atlas or lionel?

Have always wondered what happened to all the Weaver drive tooling and why no one has made their brass locomotives again.

BTW, another potential wheel/engine donor if you're planning on building one of these is a Williams EP5. As with either a PA-1 or DL-109, you'll need to extend the chassis. Not having one, I'm not sure if you can just stick 5.5" in the middle to get to 80' or if the wheelbase would be incorrect. The link I posted earlier has the dimensions. This would likely be the cheapest way to go, especially if you just want to run conventional, or plan on adding your own control system.

@GG1 4877 posted:

As for paint, the PRR adopted 5 stripe Tuscan Red in 1952 for passenger diesels and all BP20s that stayed in passenger service got that paint scheme prior to going to the NY&LB.  BP20s on the NY&LB eventually received the wide stripe scheme with 16" Roman letters in Tuscan Red.  As an aside, like the E7s and the ALCo PAs, the BP20s also had their number boards replaced with the PRR offset homemade ones when they got repainted into Tuscan Red.

Here's a rare shot. When I originally saw it, I thought some of the BP20s had gotten the DGLE single stripe paint. These are actually 2 of the 4 "downgraded" A units that received freight gearing and became BP16zs. What they're doing pulling a passenger train is anybody's guess, chalk it up to just another "you may see anything here" moment on the NY&LB. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/277850/

Some of them absolutely got single stripe DGLE in the standard freight scheme as you noted

@Magicland posted:

Here's a rare shot. When I originally saw it, I thought some of the BP20s had gotten the DGLE single stripe paint. These are actually 2 of the 4 "downgraded" A units that received freight gearing and became BP16zs. What they're doing pulling a passenger train is anybody's guess, chalk it up to just another "you may see anything here" moment on the NY&LB. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/277850/

I wasn't questioning that some of the BP20s got single stripe DGLE as several did, but that is the standard freight scheme that dated back to the first F3 delivery, not the 1955 version.  The speed limit on the NY&LB was 60 mph until electrification came to Long Branch in 1986 so the freight gearing would not have been an issue.   Also, NY&LB trains didn't need steam heat during the warmer months.  Kind of reminds me of a photo of an L1s pulling a NY&LB local I ran across once.  Nice find.

Think I've finally assembled all I need to build a BP-20 (other than the actual time to build it, too many other projects on the table at the moment). Williams A & B shark dummies (as they're just needed for the shells), and I came across an MTH Railking PA AA set which will serve as both the powered wheelbase and DCS electronics. Since I'm extending it anyway, the shorter Railking length won't be an issue.

Original Weaver offering was Powered A unit, non-powered B unit.  My model above, non-powered B unit.  A lot of the B units were retro-fitted to power.   There was available at the time an additional A unit.  Pennsy on the Long Island Railroad, used ABA sets.  There were two colors, as pictured above and Green. 

Are the Weaver BP-20 pilots attached to the front wheels, as on most RF-16 models, or attached to the body? Hard to tell, as they're usually pictured on straight tracks.

The extended pilot moves, along with the truck, and coupler.

Maybe we should pitch this locomotive to Scott Mann at 3rd Rail

Wondering if someone with a Weaver BP-20 and a camera with a good macro lens can make some close ups of the ventilator grill on the roof and take some accurate measurements of it's length and width.     Thanks !          j

I guess the photos provided a couple years ago were not close enough.  I can try again.

@CAPPilot posted:

I guess the photos provided a couple years ago were not close enough.  I can try again.

They were great photos I just cannot make out the detail in the louvers.   It's probably just behind the plane of focus.  Close is better if you can fill the frame with the louver detail.   Thank you,     j