Pennsy S-1

Apparently Hemming's read the Wikipedia article on the S-1. 

 

MTH has produced models of the S-1.

 

 

Photo of MTH S-1, T-1 and E-6

 

 

 

Pat you posted a pic of a PRR T-1 not a S-1

Woops!  I grabbed the wrong picture. Thanks for the heads up. I fixed the post.

the PRRT&HS Journal (Pennsylvania Railroad Techincal & Historical Society Magazine) has had a few articles about the duplex locos and mostly about the T1s.    It is updated information and dispells a lot of the rumors about how they ran.   

 

There is quie a bit about slippage, and they interviewed guys that actually ran them succuessfully.    They are agreed that the T1 (and presumably the S1) was not any more slippery than a K4.   they said the big problem was the hand on the throttle.   A K4 had a traditional throttle or standard throttle, and the old hands would just pull it back full to start and let the loco begin to build up speed.   The T1 had a "front end throttle" and they claimed it provided much quicker response and hence opening it wide was like popping the clutch in a hot rod, you spin the wheels.   They said if you handled it properly it had no problems starting and not spinning.   One example they gave was during testing on the N&W (there was some interest), they stopped one on a grade with a decent train, and restarted it with no problems to check this issue out.

 

However, at that point steam was doomed.   Maintenance was so much more than the new diesels, it was a simple cost issue.   The T1 poppet valves were a particular problem because they tended to need adjustment and it was extremely difficult to get to them on rear engine for adjustments.    there is no doubt the bugs would have been worked out had they been 20 years earlier and they would have been very successful locos.   As it was, the PRR just decided it was not worth anymore work.

 

Another example of the differences reported in an article in the PRRT&HS magazine, a Maintenance foreman in Enola was told that one of the new E7 diesels needed to have the wheels turned.    He complained very loudly that his K4s did not need wheels turned more than once a year or more (or something like that) and this diesel was only 3 months old.  He said EMD just made cheap wheels on their crummy diesels!   Then he went to look up the service records on the loco and found that the E7 had gone well over a couple of hundred thousand miles in the 3 months.   Most K4s averaged about 30 thousand in that time frame because of the required routine maintenance.

I've read several places that the S-1 hit 140, and that the T-1 might have been capable of and run record speeds.  Frankly I think its a shame no one in America tried to document an official record.  Not to take anything away from Nigel Gresley and Mallard, but it really was a rather small loco and "big displacement' American locos had to be capable of putting about 10 mph or more on it.  I've personally wondered if the N&W J couldn't establish a land speed record for steam, if someone pushed it hard. 

 

The S-1 was magnificent, and BIG!  the photo below shows my big steamers - all 1:48 scale.   Even though the S-1 locomotive itself was smaller than the Big Boy, I have it at the top of my "power shelf" because with tender included, it was the longest of all the steamers. From top to bottom in the photo are the S-1, a Big Boy, an Allegheny, DM&IR Yellowstone, EM-1 Yellowstone, and Challenger . . . Frankly, the S-1 is too big to run on my layout, with a lot of stick-out beyound the track on even 72" and 84" curves.  Bit I love having the model . . . 

 

 

I don't know if this engine has been modeled

In 3-rail, full scale models of the PRR S1 (note that there are no hyphens in PRR locomotive classes) were released by Lionel, MTH and 3rd Rail.

A friend of mine used to see their father climb into his job on an RPO behind T1's in

a small town in northeastern Ohio, and remembers the T1's, but this article said that

the S1 was relegated to the prairie line west of there.  I need to ask if the S1 was

ever seen.

I understand the S-1 was just too big for some tunnels and routes, and PRR had trouble finding a steady schedue-able route for it.  I think in some ways it was more a a publicity stunt/experiment in sheer size, somewhat like UP's coal turbine" "Let's try it and see what happens . . . even though you know it probably will have some problems."

The S1 was run in place. Per Wikipedia:

The S1 was displayed at the New York World's Fair of 1939 with the lettering "American Railroads" rather than "Pennsylvania Railroad". At the Fair the drive wheels operated under the locomotive's own steam power. This was done by placing the S1 on a platform that had rollers under the drive wheels. After the World's Fair the S1 was re-lettered and numbered for the Pennsylvania Railroad fleet. The S1 was used by the PRR for publicity purposes as well and its image was featured in calendars and brochures. The S1 class locomotive was so large that it could not negotiate the track clearances on most of the lines of the PRR system. In its brief service life it was restricted to the main line between Chicago, Illinois and Crestline, Ohio. It was assigned to the Fort Wayne Division and based at the Crestline enginehouse. The S1 hauled passenger trains such as The General and The Trailblazer on this route.

 

 

PRR steam passenger power was in big trouble, no matter how successful after 1944-'45.

President Clement needed Diesels to compete with the Central, and B&O for the perceived big passenger rush of the post-war period.  Then there were the actual economies involved too.  The T1 and S1 were sexy, and in some respects, successful machines, but John Q. Public could care less. Diesel power was smooth, fast, clean, modern, and everything you ever dreamed of!  Even the GG1 was starting to look a little long in the tooth.  There's no doubt that the S1 could achieve some spectacular speeds.  Here was a T1 on steriods, for sure.  I'm also sure there would have been a few persons in the PRR mechanical Dept. at Altoona, wondering just how fast these machines actually were.  This would never be given official sanction, as the results would negatively impact the Diesel crowd.  Nope, better to spend the bucks on a R.R. compatible pin ball machine for the "Jeffersonian" recreational car !  U-Rah ! 

Dont forget sunset ran these in 2 rail in the mid 80s as well. In my opinion they are much more detailed and more scale looking than later runs by other manufactures and not just because they are missing the big flanges, rollers, and big couplers!

That big art-deco Raymond Loewy S1 just reaches out and grabs you, I can't begin to understand or explain why.  Must be the absolutely HUGE size of the thing. Kinda like the Graf Zeppelin on wheels....or perhaps the Queen Mary !  The Penn had a lot of outside help putting all this together, so it's inconceivable that nobody on the design team knew that this wouldn't fit the road, except for a few limited routes.  The S1 cost the Penn around $668,K....IIRC.  I'm not gonna call it a complete waste, but those nickels would have had more impact preparing the road for the likes of the T1.

 

Guess that would depend on where John Van Buren Duer was working that day !

does it really matter if the locomotive was a success or not? in my eyes its a beautiful streamlined locomotive massive sized and looks great pulling my Pennsy pass cars. after reworking the drive in my Mort Sr Sunset it is a great puller. to bad many on the forum weren't around to give advise to the Pennsy management as with some of the sound advise i read here we know the Pennsy would still be a viable railroad!!!

Or it would have folded a lot earlier....

 

Rusty

6100 was too long for even the Crestline turntable and a wye was built just west of the roundhouse to turn it. About 15 years ago, when the derelict roundhouse was still standing, I visited Crestline. Although the rails of the wye were long gone you could still discern where they used to be.

 

There was even a special roundhouse stall built to accommodate the S1.

Faintly remember this engine at the 1939 Fair. I do Uremember the drive wheels rolling!Unfortunately my parents were only able to take us to the Fair once.

I could very easily talk myself into the big MTH O gauge model of this beast.  I remember the HO scale version we had at the shop, and it was as long as your extended arm!  I won't bite, because I ain't got the radii to accommodate this much chooch, and I can't find or afford the 1938 Broadway that would be mandatory behind her.  Sometimes I wonder just exactly what the PRR people were thinking.....and therein may lie the secret.  In addition to whatever data might be gleaned from this massive experimental chooch, there is the personality factor (possibly) at work.  Knowing that the age of steam was rapidly coming to a close, could the S1 design bureau have used this opportunity to make a statement of sorts.  In one shot - regain the engineering crown that had belonged to the Penn back at the turn of the century?  Was the Penn in effect, building it's own monument?   You could say that some men in the C&O / AMC organization tried to do something similar with the H8 Allegheny...at least in it's original form.  The real tragedy is that for all the whooptie, the big S1 was not saved...no she was an orphan of the highest order.  A one off nightmare when parts were needed.  She should have been put back to her original condition and glory and mounted on a pedestal .....perhaps with her drivers able to roll on forever on compressed air .

The S1 is one of my all time favorites. I can't even imagine what that must have looked like to people in 1939. Talk about futuristic. The only problem for me is that it didn't have a whistle...

 

I read that many of the residents in Crestline would come out and watch it turn on the wye because there was a good chance it would end up on the ground. Can you imagine re-railing that thing?