Pennsylvania K4 Torpedo Models

The Weaver Torpedo has panels that can be removed to make it look more like it did Post WWII.  The Weaver model needed this to remove the traction tires.

The four “Streamlined” K4 engines look nothing like the Torpedo.  Williams did make a descent brass model of these engines.

Only these 5 PRR engines received the shrouds.

Ron, I knew you would be able to answer my questions. I kind of wonder why some of my searches only yielded 3768 as the Torpedo, but mentions of just shrouding for the others. I guess that is why. I wonder what they looked like then?

This is a photo of streamlined K4s #1120.  Williams produced a model of this locomotive in brass in the 1980's.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=5893512

There've been a few versions of the Torpedo. It's one of my favorites, so I own a few. If we're going by company;
Lionel:
Lionel has made a few of these, mostly semi-scale.  There was a tinplate 2-4-2 version in 30s (cute little thing, runs like a champ,) which I believe they then released a spiritual successor/ re-release of in the 90s (please correct me if I'm wrong.) There was also a Lionel Smithsonian brass torpedo, similar to the Dreyfus.

Weaver:
As mentioned above, Weaver put a scale one together at one point. Base system is QSI. I've got one right now as a project locomotive.

MTH:
MTH has released a premier version (at least twice) of the torpedo. I believe that (based on comparisons between my two models) that MTH used the Weaver tooling and modified it to suit their needs. MTH has also released multiple RailKing versions of the torpedo, seemingly once every ProtoSound cycle. They all use an incorrect tender, that seems to be recycled from the S-2 turbines. This particular re-occuring model has also been produced in both Bronze and DGLE. My PS1 edition was my first ever train that I got for Christmas, but the PS3 version I have is the one I run

K-Line:
K-Line has released at least one model of the torpedo. I believe it is semi-scale, but it has the correct tender. There was a bronze version and then also a DGLE version. I've been meaning to get my hands on one, but frequently only the bronze version comes up.

Williams:
Williams I don't believe has made a torpedo. They made the only O-Gauge version of the other streamlined K-4s however (another project locomotive of mine.) The detailing on these is very basic. I don't even think the cab has any detail at all. They run quite well however. Williams has also made what I would call a "false" torpedo. There was a point where Williams was seemingly taking their 4-8-4 N&W J tooling and putting other paint schemes on it. There was a PRR version, a Canadian National Version (based off a CN U4a,) two B&O Versions (one for Royal Blue and Cincinnatian,) a Santa Fe Blue goose version (MTH did this as well,) a New Haven version (I-5 Edition,) and finally the standard N&W version. 

I don't know if 3rd Rail has done one. There may be some out there in the world of 2-Rail as well. In my little corner, I use the MTH ones a lot.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4

Dave, I was out on a (hot) hike on my first post.  While I think all your questions have been answered, here are some photos that may help.

The Weaver model of the Torpedo has a panel that comes off so you can replace the traction tires.  Very close to the same panel that came off the real one. Need to make an opening where the front couplers are since the real one had the doors taken off.  Then weather it to fit my late 40s layout.

Here are some photos of my Streamlined K4 from Williams.

Here is a shot of three of the four versions of the K4.  I don't have a pre-war version.  The post-war is Lionel.

I have the #3768 in 2-rail imported by Alco models in the 1980's and is a Samhongsa model.  Interestingly, Samhongsa was the builder for Weaver and Williams brass steam also. The PRR Emblem for the nose and miscellaneous additional detail parts came as add-on parts for application after painting.

Sunset/3rd Rail did not do a streamlined K4s to the best of my knowledge.  The Williams model was allegedly done in 2-rail but I have yet to see one and I don't possess the skills to convert a 3-rail one yet.   

I bought the Weaver on eBay a while back, the pictures looked great!  However, when I received it, one of the panels were missing, and then I noticed of all the pictures, they never had a shot of the side with the missing panel.  After some haggling with eBay, I was able to return it for full credit since it was misrepresented.  I was bummed as other than the missing panel, it was a pristine example.

@Bob great info, I tried viewing last night before heading to bed but the server was busy or crapped out so I had to look this morning.

@BBasalik I do remember hearing about the Smithsonian version when I was talking to Tony the owner at my local train store. He had actually had all the Smithsonian engines at some point and we had chatted about it a few years ago. I do still believe that 3rd Rail had made one, but I haven't researched that in a bit. It could be that my memory is a little blank on what I thought was 3rd Rail, but I can always look up again and find out for sure.

@CAPPilot Ron, I think we had seen your Weaver Torpedo before on Weekend Photo Fun with the running gear exposed. I seem to remember it vaguely but thought it was the MTH version for some reason. Oddly enough, I watched a video from four years ago from Sid's Trains on his review of the MTH PS3 version.

@GG1 4877 Jonathan, that is very interesting indeed. Quite an interesting model you have there.

I wonder why 1120 and the others are not considered Torpedoes even though they look nearly the same. Is the Williams version Brass like some of their other models? I know I saw a Pennsylvania L1 yesterday at the train store which fascinated me.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I bought the Weaver on eBay a while back, the pictures looked great!  However, when I received it, one of the panels were missing, and then I noticed of all the pictures, they never had a shot of the side with the missing panel.  After some haggling with eBay, I was able to return it for full credit since it was misrepresented.  I was bummed as other than the missing panel, it was a pristine example.

That stinks John, but at least you got things squared with eBay to get your money back and send it back. I know that there is some 2 rail version out there right now from Samhongsa but I didn't look at it too awful much since it is 2 rail. I imagine if I were to go after that, I'd be talking to Pat if harmonyards before purchasing as well as if he'd be able to convert that.

There have been a few other models out on eBay over the last few months. I'm not sure if they are the same ones I've seen or if they are new. I do know that they do come up often whether they be Weaver or MTH(mostly), I haven't seen too many others pop up though.

Trainz has a Weaver on there now, but the description says a dent in the engine and "scratches", so I'll pass on that one.

Well, Pat and I have been going back and forth as typical between us, and low and behold, he has an MTH 3768 for me. Photo with his permission to share about our upcoming fall project to turn this fall. So definitely stay tuned for questions and answers on what this model may need to be a very true to the real deal.

Looks good Dave, I wonder if Pat has another one for me?

I don't know, you'd have to ask him.

The Weaver 3-rail 3768 comes up fairly often on eBay.  Prices tend to be fairly decent if you are patient as well.  Why they are called "Torpedoes"?  I think this is a modeling community name for them more than anything any of the railroads assigned to their streamlined steam locomotives. 

I have always liked the looks of this engine.  Being somewhat rare,I doubt that I would ever come across one that I would purchase.

I would definitely go for a Torpedo if 3rd Rail would do an offering.  I do not think that will happen though.

Norm

@GG1 4877 posted:

The Weaver 3-rail 3768 comes up fairly often on eBay.  Prices tend to be fairly decent if you are patient as well.  Why they are called "Torpedoes"?  I think this is a modeling community name for them more than anything any of the railroads assigned to their streamlined steam locomotives.

"When the Pennsy responded to a growing trend of fitting streamline casings to some of their existing passenger power, it recruited Raymond Loewy to design the shroud. Loewy, better known at the time for his work on the GG-1 electric motors, adapted many of the elements to a full casing on K4 3768. The shroud's outline effaced the characteristic Belapire firebox shoulders and extended over so much of the running gear as to show only the bottom half of the drivers that its engineers dubbed it the "Torpedo"." per Class K4s - 3768 Streamliner (Locobase 16454) Pennsylvania / Vandalia Line 4-6-2 "Pacific" Locomotives in the USA

I learned something new today!  Thanks for sharing.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

"When the Pennsy responded to a growing trend of fitting streamline casings to some of their existing passenger power, it recruited Raymond Loewy to design the shroud. Loewy, better known at the time for his work on the GG-1 electric motors, adapted many of the elements to a full casing on K4 3768.

I don't think Loewy had anything to do with the GG1's motors, he was working on the body design of the GG1.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think Loewy had anything to do with the GG1's motors, he was working on the body design of the GG1.

I think John it is a general statement of what the GG1 is, not the motor itself. That's off that website, and I took it as the outside, not anything to do with the inner workings. What would he know? Zero.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think Loewy had anything to do with the GG1's motors, he was working on the body design of the GG1.

The PRR called their electric locomotives "motors", so the reference is to the locomotive as a whole not mechanical aspect of it.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The PRR called their electric locomotives "motors", so the reference is to the locomotive as a whole not mechanical aspect of it.

Interesting, odd phrasing for sure.

Well, this is interesting. I just happen to look up the Williams #1120 K4 and there is one up for bid you know where. Definitely sit this one out. I would imagine if I talked to Tony at my local train store, he could probably manage to find one somewhere.

I am intrigued that it doesn't appear that any of the other streamlined engines were produced by any of the manufacturers. I did a recent search and like before, 3768 takes the cake. 1120 did come up because of the recent listing, it started to show unstreamlined K4's in further results. No mentions of any 3rd Rail model though. Maybe I'll message Scott when I get home just to inquire as if they have ever done one just to settle that.

Take it from this serious Pennsy fan: 3rd Rail has never done a streamlined K4s.  The only K4s models by them were the unstreamlined versions sold under the High Iron banner.  High Iron was an experiment in having brass models made by a new supplier.  I briefly owned one, let's just say the experiment didn't work out.

Weaver Torpedo 3768's come up for sale frequently.  Typical pricing for Like New condition is around $450, despite what some eBay crooks ask.  The Williams 1120's don't show up as much.  Supposedly there were 538 3-rail Torpedoes made, vs. only 200 of the 3-rail Williams 1120.

I'll keep looking for a new or like new Weaver.

Another thing about the Weaver Torpedo, it is rated for O72 curves, and it means it.  The streamlined shroud around the pilot truck limits it's swing.  Forget running it on anything less than O72, or the pilot truck will derail for sure.  The Williams 1120 is happy on O31.

Thanks,Bob.

My High Iron version spent a bit of time back in the Altoona Shops before it ran well.  Other than that it is rather decently made and detailed (at least for my tastes).

I will not hold my breath for a Torpedo.

This is a very interesting thread.

Norm

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

" it recruited Raymond Loewy to design the shroud. Loewy, better known at the time for his work on the GG-1 electric motors, adapted many of the elements to a full casing on K4 3768.

As an aside:

Many railroad workers referred to any (non-steam) loco as a "motor" (as in a "motorman" on a streetcar) rather than a "locomotive.

Indeed, in my years of rail fanning with friends, I continually found some engine crews to refer to all locomotives as "motors". these were not older men, nor had they ever run electrics, nor lived where electrics ran. One in particular I remember, when asked about when he ran SD9's, said "oh, yeah - those were good ol' motors".

This wasn't/isn't universal, but common.

@Bob posted:

Another thing about the Weaver Torpedo, it is rated for O72 curves, and it means it.  The streamlined shroud around the pilot truck limits it's swing.  Forget running it on anything less than O72, or the pilot truck will derail for sure.  The Williams 1120 is happy on O31.

Fortunately, I have O72 or larger curves.

@Bob posted:

Another thing about the Weaver Torpedo, it is rated for O72 curves, and it means it.  The streamlined shroud around the pilot truck limits it's swing.  Forget running it on anything less than O72, or the pilot truck will derail for sure.  The Williams 1120 is happy on O31.

I have several RCS No 6 curved turnouts and they are suppose to be O-72/O-96.  My Weaver Torpedo will not go through the O-72 section; pilot truck hits the shroud.  Since my layout's era is late 40s and the real Torpedo had several holes in its shroud by then, I am thinking of removing metal where it hits until it goes through the turnout.

@Norm posted:

Thanks,Bob.

My High Iron version spent a bit of time back in the Altoona Shops before it ran well.  Other than that it is rather decently made and detailed (at least for my tastes).

I will not hold my breath for a Torpedo.

This is a very interesting thread.

Norm

Both of my High Iron K4s will see a little time in the Altoona shops before they are road worthy as well.  However, they are about as good running as any of the 2 rail ones out there.  I agree they have nice details, and they were more friendly on the budget over PSC models.  However, by the time I get to building an actual layout the 1:1 1361 should be back in service so I have time to yet to shop mine appropriately. 

I may keep an eye out for a Weaver 3768 as I really like my Alco one unpainted. 

@Bob again I will say that you are the Pennsylvania Railroad Expert. I had heard about the High Iron K4's being a real PITA, I think Norm Charbonneau had shown those pains on his YouTube channel. I have seen more MTH Torpedoes than any other and I would say with good reason. I think that they have ran numerous productions over the years. Weaver's do shop up, but it seems to be around 50/50 if there are some imperfections like paint chipped, or something like that. I have only ever seen the Smithsonian once, but it wasn't up for sale at the time. The person was selling his 28084 Dreyfuss with all the cars, and mentioned the other engines on his shelf pictured, one being the Torpedo, forget what the other was.

OK guys....you managed to turn the thread into a want to buy and for sale thread combo including ebay listings which is against our TOS.  So ... those posts were deleted and now the topic is closed.  Congrats to those that should really know better.  If you want to help find one of these locomotives or know where one is OR have one for sale, then either contact each other privately to make the sale or post it on the for sale forum.