Polar Express loco gears stripped

Hi Fred, sorry to read about your problem. As for the engine, the Polar Express drive train is not the most heavy duty system in the toy train world but I have never hear of this type of catastrophic failure before.

How many of the cars have you been pulling with it? See my thread "Polar Express engine cannot pull it's weight", the topic is very similar.

You sound like a guy who knows what he's doing so I'm not going to ask about the old grease and oil question.  

I will... for this kind of use you really need to use a synthetic EP grease like Lucas R&T #2.

What have you been putting in the smoker? 

It won't keep happening with regular grease applications, per ADCX Rob. They have a sparse application from the factory.

A little WD-40 on the side rods, axles and collector rollers will help, also. A little means lube and wipe with a cloth.

So true.  I took our PE apart with three days of new to completely lube it well.

The only gears I ever stripped was in a engine that the grease became hard and gummy. Today I use far less grease and check each engine that has sat for a year or more. The gears where brass worm type gears in a FM Trainmaster.

 

My thoughts are that gears can suffer from no lube, too much lube and old lube.

Sorry to hear that your Polar Express engine has stripped gears. Lionel has been using some cheap gear-sets in their lower end models for years.

Even with a new gear-set you may still have the same problem. So either keep it as a shelf item or sell it on ebay.

 

Another option is, you can find a Williams steam engine on an auction site for a good price and replace your engine with it.

 

Lee Fritz

That's one of the benefits of Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2.  It doesn't harden or gum up, and it clings to the gears.

Gentlemen,

   Rob is correct as usual, the Lucas Red "N" Tacky #2 is great stuff, however IMO the Polar Express is under powered and for this reason I have never invested in one.  GG-1Man's thread was right on the money.

PCRR/Dave

WD-40 is not a lubricant. it is a rust preventer. SO lube the engine with a quality product(s).

The WD stands for Water Displacer.  WD-40 belongs in a plumber's toolbox, not on our toy trains except maybe as a penetrating oil, and even then Liquid Wrench makes a better job of it.

 

As to the P.E. loco's power here's my actual real-life experience, not hearsay.   I got my set in April 2008.  This morning, as I was preparing for the Christmas run, the properly maintained loco pulled the three P.E. set cars along with the Hot Chocolate car, three North Pole Central passenger cars, and two Williams 2400 style passenger cars without breaking a sweat.  I don't call that underpowered.

 

Pete

 

 

I worked in the robotics industry for a number of years, and a senior mechanical engineer once told me that WD-40 is basically slow-drying glue. :-)

 

My Berkshire was pulling two freight cars (Polar RR Hot Cocoa and stock cars) plus two of the passenger cars it came with. I'd say the load was within spec. 

 

Honestly, if the manual had said anything about opening it and checking the grease, I would have done so, but since they're so specific about "sparing" application of oil on the side rods, etc, it didn't occur to me. Perhaps they should add that to their manual, and include a grease port on the bottom. 

 

I guess I'll order the replacement parts and try better greasing. Thanks for all the input!

 

Fred

Good thinking Fred and Rob's advice about the Lucas Red and Tacky is good information. I got a tube of it at Pep Boys in South Phila, one had gun tube will last a life time. If you go to the Lucas web site they will have a list of dealers.

 

Keep us posted.

I've worked on guns that were "lubricated" with WD-40 and then stored.  The stuff turns to an extremely hard varnish, and it's a major PITA to remove!  It's not a lubricant, and should never be considered one!

 

Several Polar Express locos have had the same stripped gears at our club layout at HobbyTown USA. The engines get a lot of use and as was expressed, they are built rather inexpensively to sell at lower prices to many introductory hobbyists or simple as a starter set for families with young ones. I would imagine that the use that you are describing is similar to the use at the hobby store. Greasing would help, but I doubt that these engines have the life expectancy of more expensive models.

 

Rick

Hello Fred.............

I would use Red & Tacky #2 for your engine when put in new geared driver but first remove the old factory grease and metal shavings.  I use R&T#2 in my 1300 dollar brass Sunset 3rd engine and the grease did very good job protecting the gear driver in my large Sunset engine well over 10 hours so far so good and the engine is heavy.

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678

Tiffany

I dont have this problem with MTH or Williams,even low end units. I have had the problem with Lionel plastic gears. Perhaps Timko has a aftermarket replacement.

 

Dale H

Gentlemen,

   It was not my intent to bad mouth Lionel starter sets, however Dale H has a real good point the old Williams sets never had this kind of problem and neither does the MTH starter sets.  Marty has a right to be upset if he has invested in the PE for a lot of the kids in his family, it means lots of repair or replacement work.  When you compair my original Lionel 2600 Tin Plate, a starter type set when I was a boy, to the Lionel PE starter set it's hard not to agree with Marty.  A child should be able to run his Christmas present for many years without problems, can't say this is going to happen with any of the modern PE sets. 

PCRR/Dave

"Another vendor makes starter sets at quite a similar msrp and yet they are much more robust."

 

The things that pass as "facts" around here that are clearly personal opinions are always interesting. I completely disagree with your opinion.  Train sets fail for all sorts of reasons, and vary in their robustness, as you note.  Some folks don't consider the electronics in one manufacturer's products all that robust, regardless of price.

Landsteiner,

    I believe we were all giving our own opinions of the problems with the PE.

Marty expanded his opinion into a lot of the Lionel starter sets, I can't say he is mistaken on some of the quality in these starter sets.  You seem to think some of the other companies have problems with the electrical quality in their starter sets, in your opinion what are some of these exact problems.

PCRR/Dave

  

"You seem to think some of the other companies have problems with the electrical quality in their starter sets, in your opinion what are some of these exact problems"

 

You can read plenty of complaints about this or that control system or locomotive performance on various internet forums. The same with even superb products if you read the Amazon reviews.  There's always a few lemons of products or people who cannot read instructions. 

 

My main point is that every manufacturer has serious failures in occasional sets. My estimate based upon other industries making similar products where data are available is about 5%--it's very hard to make a complex small appliance or sophisticated toy that doesn't have that sort of failure rate in early use.  This is usually attributable to manufacturing variables, transportation damage and end user "problems." 

 

To categorically state that all Lionel beginner sets are substandard is inaccurate,

damaging to the hobby,  and represents personal experience rather than

actual verifiable data. My experience has been exactly the opposite. 

 

I know other people who will not buy MTH locomotives of any sort for similar reasons.  Or Williams. Or Atlas.  One or two bad experiences will do that for someone.  But that's not the same as actionable data.  If Lionel, or MTH, or anyone else were making substandard products, they would not be in business.  If anything, Lionel set quality has improved quite a bit over the years. And they underprice their largest competitor, MTH, by $100 or more at street prices for their least expensive sets.   

 

The reason sets like the Polar Express, Peanuts, etc. are more expensive than some other sets are no doubt the licensing fees.  You're buying brands, not increased quality in those sets.  Just the reality of it.  The Thomas set and Pennsylvania Flyer sets I've tested seem just fine and a bargain at $130-150 street price.  Is the MTH set at $100+ or more a better value?  That's a personal decision, and some of the equipment is more rugged, better detailed, as you'd expect.  But the control system is not to everyone's liking.  To criticize the quality of all MTH starter sets because the Remote Commander is an inexpensive, sometimes difficult to use infrared control system would be inaccurate and also damaging to the hobby, as an example.

One person has a problem, and suddenly the Polar Express is a piece of junk?  You guys REALLY need to stop taking yourselves and your hobby so seriously.  And as for the old "I didn't mean to start a brand war"... Come on.  It happens every day on here.  They're toy trains, not a religion.  Get over it.  You can now flame away, as I'm all through with this thread. 

Merry Christmas.  :-)

I've worked on both the MTH and Lionel starter sets in some quantity.  While I don't know that the Lionel starter sets are bound to fail after a short period of running, I can say with certainty that the MTH starter set locomotives are a much more robust piece of equipment than the Lionel starter set models.

Part of this can be explained by the fact that the starter sets from MTH do cost more than the ones from Lionel.  You really do get what you pay for as a general rule.

 

Mike, I am not sure anyone is saying it is "junk", but starter sets are just that… a less expensive product to get a person or family started into the hobby. It is a hook. Most folk would not pay the high prices of the better quality stuff with all the bells and whistles. To reduce cost these sets cut some corners so that they can be offered at lower prices. I know it is only an opinion as Lansteiner has said, but when I look at these sets and when I pick them up, they in no way compare to the quality of my first Lionel trains back in the 1950's. There were no such things as "starter sets" back then. My 682 and 736 still run great after a lot of use and sorry to say abuse. 

 

From going through several engines with the same problem on the club layout, it is fairly certain that they were not built for continuous running. 

 

Rick

Wow the thread sure did attract the brand loyal people. I just know my PE is about 8 years old, maybe 7. It has survived the early years of a 9 year old beat the heck out of it and then several years of just hard running each Christmas. At times the set has just run for hours at a time. Hey the set has been played with and abused by the best of kids. The end result it still runs like day one.

 

Now I own just about every brand and my MTH engines far out number anything else. I have had problems with every brand I know. These range from shorts to cracked shells to dead engines. No big deal it happens.

 

The gears are pretty tough in these newer engines. I did read somewhere on the Lionel web site that they do not lubricate their new trains. They recommended giving it a good lube. Like I said I found it somewhere just can't remember where.

 

So IMHO it could be a few things, no lube, factory defect or maybe it was bumped hard, who knows.

 

I hope you get it figured out and repaired soon. You will find it does a great job and mine pulls 7 PE coaches with out any problems, except for the cat that just has to knock everything over and steal Tom Hanks out of the announcement car. Don't worry it pops back on to the two pins fairly easy.

 

Note: I am surprised after being off this forum for so long that it is still a "this brand is better than this brand", more than hey let me help you solve your problem forum.

GR I don't repair them I just run them. Heck I still have a nice fleet of the early PS1's to this day are some of the best runners and smokers. I love them because they came with the cast tenders too.

 

My only modern set experience is the four Lionel sets that we have, one PE, 2 HE and I believe the other is the PA Flyer or something like that. All four have worked very well and went through the kid test.

 

I would suspect the MTH sets are just as good though I have never owned a MTH set. Maybe in the future they will offer a set that attracts my interest like their PS2 / PS3 engines do.

 

 

Well, the MTH starter sets are PS/2, but they're typically not as detailed as the higher end stuff is.  I don't actually own any of the starter set MTH stuff right now, and I'm not really bashing any brand.  As Rick stated above, the starter sets are not made like the higher end Lionel stuff is, and they're priced accordingly.  Many run them like you do with no issues.  It's just as a statistical average, you will probably have more issues with the Lionel starter sets than the MTH ones.  You'll also pay less for the Lionel, and you do get the nifty LionChief remote nowadays, which I find works better than the IR remote with the MTH starter sets.

 

One of the legacies of JLC was that he put quality in even the low priced sets. For example 2035 engine or 1033 transformer. Properly maintained these units will run even 50 years later.  Very durable and good quality in its time frame. Lionel had financial trouble later and we got Scout sets and MPC.

 

When MW started MTH he had a good sense of what the customer base wanted. One of those things was all metal gears. Really I never had any problems with the drive train on them. I had one unit where a truck was assembled wrong and I had to align and re tighten a screw.

 

Williams locos cost maybe $100 and I never had any trouble.

 

I have had more than a few Lionel locos with stripped gears even after short run times and I always lube a new unit before I run it. Not really bashing a manufacturer,it is about relating my experiences. There was a lot of discussion about the plastic gears but I never had luck with a lot of them. I wish someone would offer metal replacements.

 

Dale H

While I've always heard that metal gears are better than plastic ones, I also expect that there are some non-metal composite materials that are as strong as, if not stronger than, metal.

 

Of what material are the gears in the Polar Express made? Metal, plastic or something else?

 

Thanks!

Pasta

Dale,

Pasta

LOL!  

 

I understand from your previous post, which you made while I was making mine, that the gears are plastic.

 

Thanks!

Barry, They are metal.  Part of the issue in my opinion is just capitalism in action.  Companies publically traded, or privately owned by investors want a profit "Growth".  Even the Chinese companies that make the trains want a profit growth.

 

Since prices can't inflate much in the "Train Market" and current Economic conditions; the only way to make a profit is to trim cost/expense.  Hence less details, cheaper parts, less testing etc...

 

It effects all train makers.

 

Companies can get away with it to a degree, but at some point they may lose market.  It is a fine balance act.  This is just my opinion.

 

The quality of the build of engines in the 2000 time frame is much better in my opinion.  The capabilities were less, but the product was more robust in castings, materials, etc...   G

So we're is the best place then to buy the lubricant at?

Bryan, most auto stores have Red & Tacky #2. I could only find it in a large tube since it is used in automotive "scale". Once bought, you will have enough to last you for a long, long time!

 

Rick

Hi Barry

 

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

 

A lot of my Lionel locos have them. My F3s were NOT budget priced and stripped about an hour after running. Replaced them twice now. I am not sure what the PE uses but I would bet on plastic. I am not an engineer so I can not comment on materials. However in industry in working on various machines,I never saw non metal gears used where torque stress was a factor. Plastic or brass was used mainly for noise reduction sometimes it was easily replaceable and wore first so that more expensive gears would not be damaged.

 

I am sure we will get comments on how durable plastic can be, but the stuff Lionel uses needs improvement IMO.

 

Dale H

I saw it in Walmart,in automotive.

 

Dale H

Pretty bad metal than,maybe they should use the plastic.

 

Dale H

Gentlemen,

    Merry Christmas, have fun running your Christmas layout, and may God shine his ever lasting light upon you and your family now and forever more.

PCRR/Dave

 

Owning most all the different Companies Trains I like to run them all.  The 2013 Christmas layout, featuring Tin Plate Trains, on both MTH RealTrax & Lionel FasTrack.

Upon closer inspection I attribute the failure to a complete lack of grease ever touching the gears (which are metal). There was a minute blob of grease that missed the gears completely. So, production/QA problem. I do think that a word or two about grease in the manual wouldn't be amiss. When the replacement parts come, I will apply a suitable quantity of R&T2, and I suspect that will do the trick. I've done a lot of mechanical failure analysis in my career, and with proper lubrication I think the design is probably adequate, even if the parts are a bit cheap. 

 

Despite this failure, I'm quite happy with my PE set. It fits in exactly with what I wanted to do in the front yard, the price was right, and I like the look of the cars. (The heavyweights would be cool, but I can't afford them and they wouldn't fit on the curves!) 

 

I would still buy another starter set from Lionel, MTH, Williams, etc., if I had a specific purpose in mind, as I did with the PE. Most of my limited collection so far is MTH Premier, and I've had a few issues with those as well. These are after all toys designed by companies with small engineering departments. I don't expect quite the same level of quality and reliability I would from a much larger company.

 

What this has taught me, though, is that every locomotive is going to get a thorough inspection before further running.

 

I hope you've all had a great Christmas running trains with your families!

 

Fred

Hi This is just an up date post I'm not trying to bang Lionel but their Polar Express starter set engine leaves a lot to be desired.

 

That said with the Red and Tacky advice posted above I lubed our engine. As stated there was only a small dab of grease on the top of the vertical gear near the bottom of the motor, the power transfer point to the round drive gear was dry.

I cleaned the old grease out and packed the unit with Red and Tacky and my engine runs a lot smoother and quite.

 

What I would like to warn all about is that when you remove the pickup roller and gear cover assembly plates please be real carful not to let the square brass bushings that the drive axels run through pop out of there seats. There are eight of these bad boys and it took me about two hours to get them back in and my drivers back in quarter.

 

It's all together and running now but I wish I was more carful when I did my engine. I got so tied up with the problem that I forgot all about Midnight Christmas Mass. I said a prayer blaming Lionel!

But, as I stated above the new grease really makes a difference in the very sound of the drive train.

 

On another point, that has to do with another PE pulling thread that I opened, I removed the tires from my drive wheels and applied a silicon gasket adhesive paste in there place. See Dennis's thread on tire replacement.

 

Well, my series 1 engine is now pulling all nine of our Polar Express cars.

 

I think that was mostly due to traction issues but I bet I was losing a lot of pulling power with my dry gears.

What do you guys think?"