Postwar 6464 boxcars and their remakes

RRS posted:

I was searching e-bay for a postwar 6464-650 D&RGW boxcar and found one advertised as "Vintage 6464-650 D&RGW Box Car, O Scale, Yellow & Silver" with a starting bid of $102.95.  I looked at the photos and it appeared to be in mint condition, however on closer inspection I saw the notation: "built 2000 by Lionel" so I knew it was not the original Vintage Postwar version, but one of the remakes.  I sent a very nice note to the seller that he had mistakenly advertised this car as being the Vintage version.  He replied, that he stood by his research and I should mind my own business.  Has anyone else run into this type of problem on ebay?  I think this amounts to an attempt to defraud the casual buyer, especially when the "error" has been pointed out.  The remake car is only worth (at retail) $40 in mint condition, and often sells for much less.

Yrs, RRS, sadly so.

Ya gotta look at the pics really hard.

You have just described a MAJOR flaw in eBay's listing practices; i.e., there is no procedure to bring such patently false listings to eBay's attention (to achieve effective corrective action), and that absence shows eBay's has no interest in preventing such seller tactics--purposefully misrepresenting the item.

Funny the date now appears very blurry 

good catch

The first photo shows 2000 crystal clear, but the reverse side photo is blurry.  It is clearly the re-issue, which is deceptive listing, if you consider his term of “Vintage”, to indicate it is the original Postwar version.  Bottom line is, Buyer Beware, and study photos carefully.

I find my self doing this or similar at times - not sure it is effective, but I have seen some items removed because of it:

I have noticed an increasing trend in misleading, incomplete or inaccurate listings on the bay lately. I have found that it is necessary to look closely at the pictures, request more pictures if necessary and ask questions if in doubt about anything in the listing of an item I want. If the seller gets upset or doesn't answer I move on. On occasion I will contact eBay to report issues. I have also learned to do my homework when looking to buy an item I am not familiar with so I don't get screwed. Most of the time it works out, sometimes I end up spending more money to make something right.

That's really crummy of the seller. I would hope that whoever buys the car thinking it was the original version would notice it and report it and demand a return. As both a seller and  purchaser I  have found that the benefit of the doubt is usually towards the purchaser and the seller would be asked to send and pay for the return label as well as give a full refund upon receipt of the car. I think PayPal generally stands behind the purchaser as well. I give you kudos for trying to do the right thing and protect both parties. I hope if you notice something like this again you will still notify the seller and this time receive a thank you!

TJ

TonkaNut posted:

That's really crummy of the seller. I would hope that whoever buys the car...

It won't sell.

Vintage could mean to that seller that a 20 year old item would be vintage. Maybe he would use ancient for a 60 year old item. Buyer beware when purchasing on E-Bay.

In a little over a week 

it will be an antique 

Scammers are everywhere and it's a darn shame.  Ebay is built on trust.  There will always be mistakes but this example is not a mistake.

I’m figuring ol’ boy hasn’t a clue what he’s got.....anybody bother to look at his other stuff for sale? He’s just a general antique dealer....not a whole lot of trains for sale.....I’d be willing to bet he’s got his handy-dandy Greenberg’s pocket guide from 1990 and saw gold in them there hills....call it a scam if it makes you feel better, but more than likely it’s just ignorance....and those of you that tried to contact him and explain???.....your wasting your time....you might as well called him and screamed in Chinese....he still ain’t gonna hear a word you said........Pat

Actually there is a way of reporting an item on Ebay that you feel may be fraudulent. Go to "Help & Contact" at the top of the page and put into the box "Report Fraud" for example and Ebay will contact the seller about the item without using your name.

Caveat emptor.

One of my saved ebay searches is "O gauge LIRR". Twice in a week a listing turned up for a brass engine I knew to be HO. First seller changed listing with a thank you, second one nothing. This of course is not any intent to mislead, just hurting their chances of a sale.

When I look at something of a specialized nature on ebay I always look at their other auctions--when their listing are all over the place I move on.

Actually what the seller is doing could land the person in the Leavenworth Federal Pen!  And if the Bay got info about it, and did nothing about it, some people working the Bay could end up in Kansas.

Thanks for all the helpful comments

I believe that he has corrected his listing.

Pingman posted:

You have just described a MAJOR flaw in eBay's listing practices; i.e., there is no procedure to bring such patently false listings to eBay's attention (to achieve effective corrective action), and that absence shows eBay's has no interest in preventing such seller tactics--purposefully misrepresenting the item.

You can report an item for fraudulent listing practices.  There is usually a "report" button or link on every listing.  I use it frequently whenever I find something that is listed in the wrong category or is misrepresented.

I remember the laugh I got a year or so ago when I spotted a "vintage MTH" locomotive for sale. It was not used as a misleading statement, but was apparently the result of a young adult seller's perspective. I'm old - "vintage" means pre-1960 (like me - by 12 years).

Most sellers on eBay are just fine, and I have had very few bad transactions, and only one outright theft. But - I have my seller-spec checklist and my "buyer-sense" on high when I'm shopping. Heck, I almost bid on an item a few weeks ago, then I realized that he had mis-listed it - it was H0 scale - a bag of steam loco detail items, as I recall.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Actually what the seller is doing could land the person in the Leavenworth Federal Pen!  And if the Bay got info about it, and did nothing about it, some people working the Bay could end up in Kansas.

How is that? Just for using the word vintage? .....3/4’s of the sellers and all EBay’s staff would fill the joint up.....I’d like the hear how this works!........Pat

20-30 year old stuff can be considered vintage.

If you send the buyer a question and he tells you it is an original 6464, he could still say yes and not be lying.

If you ask the seller if it is a remake made in 2000 and he lies and says no, then maybe you have a case. That's why most just say they don't know anything and are selling for a friend. They're not in violation if they are just ignorant. Is it on purpose, probably, but hard to prove.

That's why someone came up with the "let the buyer beware" slogan.

Caveat emptor means “let the buyer beware.” It’s not merely a slogan. It’s a legal standard which dictates that the courts or government in general will not intervene in every case where a seller wasn’t completely honest.

This particular case doesn’t even come close to fraud. At best, the seller used what is known as a “buzzword” to entice interest and support an overpriced item.

Plus, the term vintage does not exclusively mean an older version. It essentially means a point in time when something was made. A wine may be a 2012 vintage or a 2016 vintage. It doesn’t mean a very old wine.

All the information is in the listing to give the buyer enough information to avoid the sale. The price is reason enough, and I suspect an experienced 6464 collector would know instantly the dealer isn’t selling anything worthy of consideration. 

As for claims that eBay has no procedures to report fraudulent listings or that someone could end up in the federal penitentiary for using the word vintage in an eBay listing for a $102 item, do some research before commenting at all.