Potential problems using a command control system at a train show

geepboy posted:

I am considering building a small modular layout with the intention of taking it to train shows. I have lots of experience taking a modular layout to train shows although it is in HO scale. It is controlled by a command control system with the data being transmitted through the rails although we have the Wi-Fi capability. We have no problems with other modular layouts right next to ours interfering in any way even if they too are under a digital command control system. In case you're wondering, our system is based on Märklin and is 3-rail AC too.

So, I look at the two main contenders in O Gauge - Lionel and MTH. It is my understanding that the Lionel system transmits its data through the air while the MTH system transmits its data through the rails. Is this correct?

Not quite. The Lionel TMCC hand controller does indeed transmits through the air to the TMCC/Legacy command base. However, the information is transmitted through "earth ground" by way of the outside rails to the locomotives. Thus, any number of "issues" can be encountered inside large event venues with varying earth ground systems.

The MTH DCS system sends the information through the air from the hand-held controller to the TIU, which then transmits the commands digitally through the center/powered rail. The MTH DCS system can be, and has been, affected by LOTS of people congregating around the module layout. As a result, many times the DCS hand-held may have to be hard wired directly to the TIU (such cables are readily available).

Does anyone have any experience with either system being operated in a train show environment? Were there any problems with interference from other near-by layouts?

When the Independent Hi-Railers, Midwest Division group was still doing train shows, with our huge modular layout, we did indeed have issues with TMCC interference from others, plus the remote ceiling fan controls in some large buildings. The very large Trainfest, held in the Milwaukee County Fair Grounds every year, was quite a problem. The large crowds tended to affect the MTH DCS response, also. 

As always, thanks for your invaluable time and help.

Dan

We had a couple of "friendly rivals" train clubs and layouts in the Mobile area for some years, a few years ago (one is defunct) - one was a more Hi-Rail offshoot of the original toy-train bit. Some of us lost interest in the 150 smph trains.

We both used TMCC, and, yes, the interference did happen. Later the original club switched chips in their control equipment (not locos) so their engine #XX would not hear our engine #XX command, and vice versa.

They went back to conventional control (don't know why) and our layout got sold.

TMCC continues to impress me, even after decades. Robust signal, simple to use, almost bug-free. It was The Answer; now we ask the wrong questions.

our club runs TMCC at shows with no trouble, but at home i have a NCE DCC system on a small switching layout and the wireless system keeps the MTH system from working i think the wireless systems are in conflict. i can run the NCE DCC with plug in hand held's without affecting the MTH system as long as i disconnect the antenna on the DCC.  NCE is dominant in this area but you may find that digitrax is in yours and i have not heard of any issues with that. Our club the Flower city hirailers in rochester ny has not had much luck with MTH DCS at shows and i suspect that it might be part of the problem. my MTH system at home is a bit finicky but i run TMCC as well they both play together. the TMCC seems to be bomb proof.   hope this helps   Rick

I'm wondering if the MTH DCS system would have those interference issues if it was running in a wi-fi connected mode.

Dan

It's wireless ... the unexpected can happen.

The TMCC1 system used the same crystals for every handset so adjacent layouts interfered with one another unless some agreement is made assigning engine #s (or the crystals were swapped).  Additionally, the TMCC signal can transfer passively to non-connected tracks so adjacent layouts share their signals.

DCS handheld to TIU is wireless and is subject to interference.  We observed two sources at several shows: DCC operation on adjacent layouts (I guess the DCC handhelds use the same band), and the show venue's bright lights generate RF noise.

These days, 2.4Ghz is the handheld to base communication.  Tablet/phone/PC apps connect using WiFi.  The Legacy Base allows selection of 9 channels.  Channel 1 is below WiFi channel 1, and channel 9 is above WiFi channel 11.  I recommend you set the Legacy Base to channel 9 to avoid most interference.

Add the LCS WiFi and the MTH WIU into the mix and you have lots of opportunities to mess up the communications.  At a show last December, we added a wireless router to provide a common access point for both the LCS WiFi and WIU.  The router was a fire-breathing 802.11-alphabet model aimed at the high speed home gaming and streaming market.  Before the show started, all systems tested OK and weak signal on Legacy CAB2s was attributed to low batteries.  Once the show started, hundreds of guests with their cell phones hunting for WiFi came in and filled the 2.4Ghz band, train cams came alive on 2.4Ghz, etc.  Legacy locos were uncontrollable.  Fortunately, two of us had notebooks and tablets loaded with WiFi sniffers and network diagnostic tools so we were able to observe that the router (which combines adjacent WiFi channels for throughput) was dominating the 2.4Ghz spectrum.  We didn't have a frequency analyzer but I suspect the router radiated lots of RF noise outside of designated channels because even Legacy channel 9 didn't work.

Once we removed the high performance router, Legacy and MTH systems worked fine and the CAB2s had signal 50 ft. away.  An older router (no high performance channel bonding) was substituted and tested OK.    Conclusion: the high performance router was actively jamming the Legacy base and other 2.4Ghz communications.  

Another observation is when a custom wireless configuration such as we tried is installed on a club layout, you need a network engineer with passwords and familiarity with all the networked devices on hand to troubleshoot the system.  And, as soon as something doesn't work, the operators start pulling cables to get their control system working.  We have enough issues with "engine not found" and don't need spooky WiFi to deal with at show time.

Lessons learned ... your home layout and pre-opening hours at shows are not the same RF environment as a public show.  Set WiFi channels on your devices to avoid interference but otherwise leave the WiFi devices in their default configurations.  Have a fallback control strategy.  KISS.

OK, understood.

So, if I understand the issue, the MTH DCS system is wireless only between the handheld controller and the TIU. After that , the TIU data is transmitted to the locos through the rail. If my understanding is correct, is there a way to hard wire the DCS controller to the TIU, i.e., no wireless anywhere in the data chain?

Is there a way to accomplish this same wireless method with Lionel Legacy? I'm guessing not because the Lionel data transmission method is always wireless somewhere.

Does that make sense?

Dan

geepboy posted:

OK, understood.

So, if I understand the issue, the MTH DCS system is wireless only between the handheld controller and the TIU. After that , the TIU data is transmitted to the locos through the rail. If my understanding is correct, is there a way to hard wire the DCS controller to the TIU, i.e., no wireless anywhere in the data chain?

Yes.

Is there a way to accomplish this same wireless method with Lionel Legacy? I'm guessing not because the Lionel data transmission method is always wireless somewhere.

You are correct, i.e. there is no way to "wire connect" the Lionel hand-held controllers to the TMCC or Legacy bases.  However, that said, there still could be issues with earth ground conditions within the building you are showing/operating in.

Does that make sense?

Dan

Not trying to hijack this post but since your talking about different systems I was wondering about what I could use with my 2 rail O scale trains I have that came from Italy ( Lima ) I plan on running this on a second level in far corner of the layout/room.

Would electric railroad DC Commander Work so I could use My TMCC system I already have?

At one show another layout hijacked control of my DCS loco. I ran a different loco without issue so no real harm. I only have a couple of TMCC tinplate but at one show I was running them in conventional, or at least attempting to. The layout next us was running TMCC and their signal was keeping mine from running. I just borrowed some equipment for the day and ran mine in TMCC.

Steve

For the record, I have operated OGauge engines equipped with the BlueRail Trains bluetooth system at so many club meets I've lost count. Never had a single control issue running on a number of club based layouts at the meets. In talking with other club members, the only other control mode that is as trouble free is conventional. As another option, my newer LionChief engines appear to be as reliable as the bluetooth equipped engines in the same environment.

Both the TIU and TMCC/Legacy bases can be commanded via a wired serial port.  The TIU supports tethering a single remote via a phone cord plugged into the remote's programming port.

The TMCC and Legacy bases can be commanded via their serial ports using an external PC.  I know of a commercial program - Harvy Ackermans' eTrain software - that can use serial comms from a PC.  There are a bunch of us on this forum who have dabbled in commanding the base using a PC or Arduino using our own code.

These days, I recommend getting the WiFi adapters for the bases.  The WiFi interfaces support apps that run on your phone/tablet/PC and seem to work reliably at shows where the hardware handhelds have communication issues.

+1 on Bluetooth control if you have the locos.

We have frequently run in close proximity to another "club" that also uses DCS. When the knucklehead wants to stop or change out a locomotive on his layout, he routinely hits the ESTOP on his handheld remote. Even if we're running TMCC/Legacy (since power runs through Fixed DCS channels), our layout is killed. And yes, I have "accidently" pressed a red button or two just to get back at him.

We have also run into situations where if he is trying to run the same engine # on the Engine List as us, there is interference. He also goes through the "Add MTH Engine" function, even if the engine is already on his engine list.

He has hijacked our engines on more than one occasion by not paying attention to what engine his DCS has located. The worst is when he quickly the scrolls the speed up on the thumbwheel until our engine is running at max speed and then hits the DIR or ESTOP button(s). There have been times we have been running multiple trains independently on the same loop, and he has slammed trains into each other at speed.

Yes, we have changed TIU and remote addresses. 

The Lehigh Valley HiRailers set their layout DCS TIU to address 4. If anyone else was operating DCS in the area, we made certain they operated with another TIU address. As mentioned earlier, you can tether a remote to the TIU. This does in fact shut down the wireless link between the remote and the TIU. The down side is you can connect only one remote. As for MTH Wifi, I would not use it at a show. It is way too easy to hijack a train. The only way I know to prevent that is to change the password into the WiFi unit. I have tried that route without success. 

BTW, multiple remotes on a display layout can be a problem, as it is possible to assign the same engine address to multiple engines (not in the same remote). We solved that by requiring everyone to set their engine addresses on a tethered programming track and write down the engine and address. When the programming was complete, you unplugged your remote, set the engine on the layout, and operated normally (wireless mode). Both TIUs MUST be set for the same address! Tethering your remote to the programming track prevents cross talk with the layout's TIU.

Regarding TMCC, there are 2 sets of crystals available. I don't remember which is which, but one of them seems to have been produced in fewer numbers than the other. So if you can figure out which set that is, you can help the odds in your favor. As mentioned earlier, cooperation with other displays is the best way to prevent inadvertent hijacking of TMCC engines. We typically assigned blocks of 20 engine IDs to a layout, and record which engine has which ID. That keeps the insanity level down.

Having said all that, we have still had instances where the layout goes completely haywire for some unknown reason. This usually requires  a complete cold shutdown of all components and subsequent restart. A major pain in the tush, with the general public milling around wondering if these guys know anything about running their trains. If all else fails, have an easy way to get everything up in conventional mode and get some motion back on the layout. I keep a couple of strictly conventional engines just for that eventuality.

Chris

LVHR

It's my worry that anyone with the free app from Lionel can hi-jack your BlueTooth controlled trains at a show... or is there a way to stop that?

Jon

In anticipation of TMCC hijacking a couple of decades ago, I ordered a set of crystals from Lionel.  The parts tech told me I got the last set.  TRAX RC cars use the same frequencies and have their crystals had the same form factor as Lionel.  I tried a TRAX crystal, but it didn't work.  My HAM friends told me to find someone who had a crystal testing device and determine the Lionel crystal's parameters and feed those into one of the websites that offer custom-built crystals.  Too much work, and other than a GATS event where there were multiple TMCC layouts, the hijacking issue has been easily managed by engine # changes.

Re: Bluetooth hijacking ... I'll have to experiment.

We generally just agree with any nearby clubs about channels for the Legacy and the TIU addresses.  So far, that has worked quite well in the venues we're run, though occasionally there are a few problems.

In TMCC/Legacy that's fine.  But in the Brave New World of LionChief Plus... anyone who downloads the free app from Lionel can play, right?

Jon

FCTT HIRAILERS ROCHESTER NY        TCA16-72004

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We ran into the same problem.

This is not quite the same situation as described in the original post.  

The Paradise & Pacific Club Layout in Scottsdale Arizona is located less than fifty feet from an HO layout using the NEC DCS system.  Both layouts are permanent layouts in a public building and operate 363 days per year.

Both the DCS (MTH) and DCC (NCE using the wireless remote) broadcast on the same frequency and CONFLICT WITH EACH OTHER.   This led to an interesting process of testing with some very sophisticated equipment and getting to know and work with some very interesting people in another club and others across the country.  

We did find a solution to our specific problem and appreciate thee assistance of the HO club and NCE.  Please contact me off Forum if you run into the same situation.

Please consider this an invitation to visit McCormick-Stillman Railroad in Scottsdale Arizona.

Have fun with your trains!

Tracker John posted:

Re: Bluetooth hijacking ... I'll have to experiment.

We had ran into problems with the 900MHz band that the MTH DCS Remote with some of our layouts at some locations. It was very random and to this day we suspect it had something to do with the fluorescent lights... Anyway, as soon as we installed WIU's our problems went away completely and we never looked back. We have been to shows where the 2.4 GHz spectrum was just a "hot mess" and noticed some latency when sending commands via our tablets. The quick solution to that was using the wired Ethernet connection from the WIU to a 5.8 GHz wireless router with a good password. Reconnect all of the tablets on the hardly used 5.8 GHz band and away we go trouble free and you don't have to worry about your neighbors hi-jacking your layout.

TMCC got to be too much troubleshooting at the shows. You'd never know how good or bad the building "ground" were and other nearby plugged in device resulted in too much interference for the TMCC signal. We eventually moved everything to DCS with WIUs and kissed those problems goodbye.

KOOLjock1 posted:

It's my worry that anyone with the free app from Lionel can hi-jack your BlueTooth controlled trains at a show... or is there a way to stop that?

Jon

Ensure the loco is at least 40 feet away, and there aint nobody who will be hijacking it with bluetooth.   

H1000 posted:

The quick solution to that was using the wired Ethernet connection from the WIU to a 5.8 GHz wireless router with a good password. Reconnect all of the tablets on the hardly used 5.8 GHz band and away we go trouble free and you don't have to worry about your neighbors hi-jacking your layout.

 

This sounds like a very elegant and effective solution to the "hijack" problem. Please share a little more information on how exactly you did this. For example, which tablets did you use?

Thanks for your time,

Dan

Gilly@N&W posted:

We have frequently run in close proximity to another "club" that also uses DCS. When the knucklehead wants to stop or change out a locomotive on his layout, he routinely hits the ESTOP on his handheld remote. Even if we're running TMCC/Legacy (since power runs through Fixed DCS channels), our layout is killed. And yes, I have "accidently" pressed a red button or two just to get back at him.

We have also run into situations where if he is trying to run the same engine # on the Engine List as us, there is interference. He also goes through the "Add MTH Engine" function, even if the engine is already on his engine list.

He has hijacked our engines on more than one occasion by not paying attention to what engine his DCS has located. The worst is when he quickly the scrolls the speed up on the thumbwheel until our engine is running at max speed and then hits the DIR or ESTOP button(s). There have been times we have been running multiple trains independently on the same loop, and he has slammed trains into each other at speed.

Yes, we have changed TIU and remote addresses. 

There is nothing like the amount of havoc an incompetent/inexperienced/inattentive operator can generate.

Years ago on a club layout, I was running a Marx engine conventionally on TRack 1. Occasionally it would take off like a rocket and I had to grab it to keep it from launching off the table.

It turned out that another operator was building a train and using TRain 1. That was the problem. I explained that, as far as CAB-1 was concerned, TRack 1 was the same as TRain 1. "ARE YOU SURE??!!" was his reply. I had to insist that he build TRain 4, or TRain 5 on up. There was no reason that his train had to be number 1.

He wasn't happy, but I insisted, so he eventually built TRain 5 and my lovely custom painted Marx Canadian Pacific was safe for the rest of the day. He didn't bother to apologize either.

What a dipstick.

Dan,

Not too much to it. The primary Tablet that we use is an older Google NEXUS 7 (2013 version), I also use my Motorola RazrM (XT907). These devices all support the 5ghz Network if needed. These are older and can be picked up on eBay fairly cheap ($20 to $40). But you can secure your network with the WIU by itself without an external wireless router. When you log into the LUCI web interface on the WIU, there are all sort of options available to configure the wireless settings of the WIU. The most important of these is to change the default Wireless password from "mthdcswifi" to something else. I can provide detailed screen shots if you want.

Once this is done, your security is almost rock solid.

The next step is to secure the TIU itself which can be done one of two ways.

1)  The easy way is to tether a DCS remote to the TIU with a phone cord. When a DCS remote is tethered, the the internal transceiver is disabled and that tethered DCS remote is now the remote that can talk with the TIU (with exception of the WIU & tablets of course). 

2)  The slightly harder way is to open the TIU and remove the transceiver board from the TIU. Now the only way for a TIU to receive instructions is via a WIU or tethered DCS remote.

Both of these methods will disable a DCS remote from communicating with the TIU via the wireless 900MHz signal.

LionChief Plus (original non-Bluetooth version), or conventional.  TMCC / Legacy worked pretty well for us, but as others have said, the lack of earth ground, built-in surge protection at the venue, etc., could make for the unexpected.

Our club NEVER got its DCS to work reliably in a train-show environment.  With our large layout, the biggest problem was remote-to-base communication.  For a single operator, the remote worked ok with a phone-cord tether to the TIU.  I hacked up a 'Y' tether for an attempt to use two remotes, never got a chance to test that one.

Ted S posted:

LionChief Plus (original non-Bluetooth version), or conventional.  TMCC / Legacy worked pretty well for us, but as others have said, the lack of earth ground, built-in surge protection at the venue, etc., could make for the unexpected.

Our club NEVER got its DCS to work reliably in a train-show environment.  With our large layout, the biggest problem was remote-to-base communication.  For a single operator, the remote worked ok with a phone-cord tether to the TIU.  I hacked up a 'Y' tether for an attempt to use two remotes, never got a chance to test that one.

Yeah between the all the "Out of Range" errors with DCS and the rocket launches and/or dead stops with TMCC, trains shows got frustrating for a while. We had our best luck with the DCS remotes as long as we stayed within 30 feet of the TIUs. As soon as the layouts were back at home base, the remotes worked great with exceptional range... we never did figure it out what the true source of the interference was.

TMCC was a bigger shot in the dark, the "whole building" surge protectors really messed with it and we pretty much had to go back to conventional control for a lot of shows for this reason.

The WIU  added to our DCS system changed everything, it was command control that worked without disruption from nearby interference or building wiring.

I also think that Bluetooth control will work pretty well for cutting through interference as long as you can stay in range of the loco. A couple of our layouts prove to be a challenge for Bluetooth as you must stay in the middle of the layout and keep the remote at least chest high at all times or run the risk of your engine stopping due to loss of signal.

I have run my trains with my show set up for many many years at train shows. The Lion Chief works fairly well with the controls mounted on the fence for the kids to run trains with the occasional engine that might get a little interference from ???? but they still run most of the time. I have run TMCC and DCS a lot and had one place where I could not get the DCS to work. I plugged the hand held remote with the connecting plug into the TIU and had no problems after this but might be problem if several remotes are in use on a larger display. 

H1000 posted:

Dan,

Not too much to it. The primary Tablet that we use is an older Google NEXUS 7 (2013 version), I also use my Motorola RazrM (XT907). These devices all support the 5ghz Network if needed. These are older and can be picked up on eBay fairly cheap ($20 to $40). But you can secure your network with the WIU by itself without an external wireless router. When you log into the LUCI web interface on the WIU, there are all sort of options available to configure the wireless settings of the WIU. The most important of these is to change the default Wireless password from "mthdcswifi" to something else. I can provide detailed screen shots if you want.

Once this is done, your security is almost rock solid.

The next step is to secure the TIU itself which can be done one of two ways.

1)  The easy way is to tether a DCS remote to the TIU with a phone cord. When a DCS remote is tethered, the the internal transceiver is disabled and that tethered DCS remote is now the remote that can talk with the TIU (with exception of the WIU & tablets of course). 

2)  The slightly harder way is to open the TIU and remove the transceiver board from the TIU. Now the only way for a TIU to receive instructions is via a WIU or tethered DCS remote.

Both of these methods will disable a DCS remote from communicating with the TIU via the wireless 900MHz signal.

H1000,

Thanks for your very helpful replies. Allow me to summarize to see if I have understood the gist of your advice.

If I want to use MTH DCS to control a small modular layout with smart phones or tablets through the WIU at a train show and while there are no guarantees it greatly increases my chances of success if I:

a) Tether one of the DCS remotes to the TIU. This effectively locks out other DCS remotes from whatever source taking control of my TIU, and further...

b) Change the password on the WIU. This also helps prevent "others" from taking control of one of my locos.

While using a router on 5.8GHz may add an additional level of security, in most cases it's not needed if I do a) and d) above. It also never hurts to have the capability to run in a conventional mode when all else comes to smash (literally).

Is that about it?

Dan

Regarding a good ground in the power outlet for TMCC ... I always test the electrical source for a proper polarity and ground while setting up.  One venue had a bad ground that was solved by running the extension cord to a different outlet.  A convention center had a bank of outlets within our layout - half on each phase so two of our Z4000s were phased incorrectly (lesson learned - power the entire layout from a SINGLE electrical outlet).  In the absence of a good ground, make your own ground plane by running 3-pin extension cords underneath the modules.  My club's module wiring harnesses now include a ground plane wire connected to the ground pin of the AC power.

Read Dale Manquen's  TMCC Signal Basics.  Think about why house wiring in ceiling and walls are suitable for transmitting the TMCC signal while wiring in conduits in a metal show arena may not suffice.   Multiple TMCC bases will share the same ground plane antenna.  Sometimes I wonder why it works at all.

Tracker John posted:

Think about why house wiring in ceiling and walls are suitable for transmitting the TMCC signal while wiring in conduits in a metal show arena may not suffice.   Multiple TMCC bases will share the same ground plane antenna.  Sometimes I wonder why it works at all.

I hear what you are saying, but shouldn't the conduits be grounded as well, therefore able to radiate the signal?

The two shows where I noted really weak TMCC signal were both in cavernous metal structures.  High ceilings, bright vapor lights (with attendant DCS interference), and other sources of interference.  At one of these, I tested the CAB2 out to 70 ft. from the base while setting up, but comms range was less once the show opened and the lights were turn on full.   The conduits (ground plane) were screwed into metal H-columns, so potentially the entire structure became the antenna.   Considering the distance between the layout surface and the ceiling, the ground plane signal may have been weak to begin with and was further degraded with RF noise during the show.  At another show, I was able to improve the ground plane by running the grounded extension cords around the layout perimeter in a problem area.  Without RF analysis gear, I'm making a SWAG at the reasons for the weak signal and attempt improve the ground plane with additional wiring.