Power Problems with Railking PS3 Steam Engines

Have you run any of the engines under DCS to verify operational integrity in command mode?

Sounds like enigne continuity through the drawbar.  Can be broken connector wire at terminal, bad drawbar, same on tender side though that seem rarer.  Swap in a new drawbar.  G

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Have you run any of the engines under DCS to verify operational integrity in command mode?

No, he hasn't tried to run with DCS. I guess we'll have to try that. Thanks!

@GGG posted:

Sounds like enigne continuity through the drawbar.  Can be broken connector wire at terminal, bad drawbar, same on tender side though that seem rarer.  Swap in a new drawbar.  G

G, we did try swapping in the previously unused short drawbar that came with the engine. No luck there either. Remember that two other engines have the same issue. What are the chances that they all have bad drawbars, even when they were new? Shouldn't the super cap(s) supply power in case of a track power interruption?

@rickoshay posted:

Shouldn't the super cap(s) supply power in case of a track power interruption?

NO, not in conventional. Key point is this is reading the track voltage to determine a speed. If it loses track power, then NO the motor does NOT get power just because there are super capacitors keeping the logic of the tender board powered. Further, the boiler board in the engine to which the motor is attached has no super capacitors. Again, super capacitors are powering the sound and logic- NEVER the motors.

Just as a thought, I know the P47 style Hudson Railking chassis was equipped with too long of rollers such that they could contact the front truck, and over time as the paint wears off, this develops a short. I do not have one of the above listed engines to validate but something I would check for.

I documented that here. https://ogrforum.com/...8#160364097356136878

@Vernon Barry posted:

Your symptom of power loss randomly reminded me of this fact specific to this style of engine. I had identified that on the P47 chassis and other Crusader, Hudson, or RK 4-6-X wheel arrangement series engines. The front pickup roller arm length could touch the square cast in square guide of the front truck assembly. Because the front diecast truck is painted it takes a little while for this short to happen. Also, variations in track can cause the center roller to ride higher up and short. The fix was to install a specific shorter arm length roller (BD-0000013) in that front position.

According to a RK Hudson parts breakdown, the original roller is a BD0000048 (7.9mm DIAM x 10.7mm W / 22.7mm L RIVET TO RIVET) .

The suggested shorter fix version is BD0000013 (7.9mm DIAM x 10.8mm W / 18.2mm L RIVET TO RIVET).

Comparison side by side.

Appears to be an assembly or sourcing mistake and put too long of a front roller pickup arm and it allows the front 4 wheel pilot truck diecast frame to hit the front roller and since the front truck and frame is ground the pickup roller is 3rd rail, a direct short. The fix is a simple replacement shorter pickup roller BD0000013. https://www.mthpartsandsales.com/shop/search

Again, both my personal engines and all engines sold through our shop we change this front roller to a slightly shorter arm variant and eliminate this issue. It affects more than this engine, any of these railking 4-6-2 frames have been coming with the same issue.

To determine if your engine might have this issue: flip the engine upside down with the wheels facing up. Hold the front truck straight in line with the drive wheels pulled back towards the drive wheels where it would naturally trail during running down a straight track. Now push down on the front roller and see that it can hit the back edge of the square pivoting hole of the die cast front truck frame. That's the short problem. Here are pictures from a New Haven 30-1700-1 Crusader that is likely the same basic rolling chassis.

Insulating the bar with tape doesn't last and wears through in a short time. Cutting the front truck bar away isn't a good idea and weakens the structure. Changing the roller is a simple fix. Check your other engines of this same size and wheel type, and in fact, any newer engine for this error. We started buying the rollers in bulk and changing them the instant they arrive in the shop and even retrofitted any previous engine sold.

This affected several of my personal Railking engines and is now a step I check for while lubricating any MTH engine I get.
Examples include the RK P47 Blue Comet or any other road name, the Crusader series any road name, The streamlined Hudsons and so forth. Again, any new RK smaller engine, we began checking for this interference with the front truck since MTH appears to be using a common lower chassis and front truck and is using the same pickup roller.

The BD0000013 shorter roller installed, it is near impossible for the front truck to short to the roller.

Since you have a Z4000, does the Amp readout drop to 0.0 (zero) whenever the engine shuts down?  If the engine stops and shuts down by itself whether conventional or command, this suggests to me that the PS3 board lost track voltage.  The Z4000 Amp reading is one way to determine if there is a circuit interruption (loss of continuity) in one or both sides of the track voltage.

@rickoshay posted:

...

The problem is a sudden loss of power while running. The engines stop abruptly, the headlight goes off, and sounds remain but go into shutdown mode even with track still powered. This happens randomly on the layout (turnout, curve, straight, doesn't seem to matter) while running at 11-16 volts using a Z4000 power supply.

Most times, the engines will start back up but not always. He has tried a factory reset multiple times.

...

So when you say the engines will start back up, do you mean by simply lower and raising the track voltage?  Or do you mean by nudging the engine a millimeter or whatever and then it starts back up?

@Vernon Barry posted:

Just as a thought, I know the P47 style Hudson Railking chassis was equipped with too long of rollers such that they could contact the front truck, and over time as the paint wears off, this develops a short. I do not have one of the above listed engines to validate but something I would check for.

I documented that here. https://ogrforum.com/...8#160364097356136878

Thanks Vernon, worth taking a look-see. Will check it tomorrow.

@stan2004 posted:

Since you have a Z4000, does the Amp readout drop to 0.0 (zero) whenever the engine shuts down?  If the engine stops and shuts down by itself whether conventional or command, this suggests to me that the PS3 board lost track voltage.  The Z4000 Amp reading is one way to determine if there is a circuit interruption (loss of continuity) in one or both sides of the track voltage.

So when you say the engines will start back up, do you mean by simply lower and raising the track voltage?  Or do you mean by nudging the engine a millimeter or whatever and then it starts back up?

Hi Stan, I have the engine at my house so I'll give that a try with my Z4000. Will let you know what I find out. Thanks!

Also, simply shutting down then adding power with throttle. Engine is not moved.

Your first description the engine did shutdown so that is loss of AC.  There were some bad drawbars with the solder joints for the pins not complete.  You said the engine does shutdown sounds when the track power is removed correct?  So that means Supercaps are ok?  If you turn track power off and there are no shutdown sounds that could be a bad cap or solder joint which would have continuity of power issues.

Do other engines run fine on the layout?  Do the PS-3 engines stop at a specific spot?  Or randomly on the layout?

If the engine just stop but tender lights and sound stay on, that is usually lose of some signals to the engine, but AC power still getting to the tender. If whole engine shuts down that can be loss of ac.

These issue can occur.  It can be poor Center rail to engine because of corroded pickup roller pin.  Bad outer track pickup do to dirty wheels.  Can be engine harness issue from boiler board to drawbar.  Can be draw bar.  Can be harness in tender from drawbar to tender board.  You just have to figure it out.  Bad terminal crimp, broken intermittent wire, bent pin, loose connector contact, etc.....   G

Okay, I removed both tender and engine shells and continuity tested both harnesses plug to plug and both drawbars, pin to corresponding pin, plus all grounds and power wires. I also wiggled each wire to check for any loose connections. Everything checked out fine (Vernon - rollers aren't close to front or rear trucks on this model).

Placed engine on my layout (which is also Super O) and fired it up. Good so far, started up as normal. Engine ran fine about eight feet but stopped dead at the first 112 switch (Stan - amps went to zero). I tilted the engine and found that the front roller was sitting on the switch's frog rail while the rear roller was located on the center rail of a straight track.

I moved the engine back off of the switch and used a bright boy eraser to shine up the frog rail and this time the engine went through just fine. Ran engine around the loop and through multiple switches with no problems. This led me to deduce that there might be a problem with the rear roller/pin assembly.

I pressed out the roller pin and found scoring and some blackened marks the length of the pin on the bottom side of the pin, where spring pressure causes contact with roller. Likewise on the front pin. I polished the pins and ran some sandpaper through the rollers and assembled pins with the scoring facing up, then staked them so they would stay in that orientation. Applied a small drop of oil to both pins.

Ran the engine several laps around with no power loss so keeping my fingers crossed that I found and fixed the issue. Big thanks to all for the suggestions!

Well, back to the drawing board. The engine ran great for two days before the stalling issue returned. Owner stated this was the longest and best the engine had performed since he bought it brand new.

I made up and installed another set of pickup assemblies using new pins and a couple of the older "bronze" colored rollers. Engine ran about ten feet and stalled on a right switch going into the divergent leg. Investigation revealed a very slight possibility that the rearward roller could short between the (hot) frog rail and the grounded swivel rail for an instant. This still would not explain why the engine sometimes stalls on a straight or curved section of track.

After the stall, we shut off the track power and tried to restart. Headlight/markers came on followed by the sounds, but engine would not move. Tried reverse and tender light came on but again no movement. Engine did restart and run after unplugging the drawbar from the tender and then reconnecting.

At this point it looks to me like the problem is not mechanical but is circuit board related. Could there be an intermittent electronic component failure? Also seems strange that the engine ran flawlessly for two days after both shells were removed and all plugs, wires, and drawbar pins were tested for continuity. I did not remove the circuit board to inspect since I have no way to test and don't know what to look for anyway.

Any ideas?

Here's the latest update. I removed the loco shell, unplugged the CB connections, and removed the board in order to take a look. Not real sure exactly what to look for but didn't see anything that appeared to be a bad solder joint or trace.

While installing the shell attachment screws, I happened to notice the ground strap (part# 114500002) on the trailing truck. So, thinking I had nothing to lose, I removed the strap and cleaned with a track eraser and alcohol. Also removed/cleaned the factory grease from the corresponding axle. Believe it or not, this seems to have made the biggest improvement in performance so far!

While the stalling problem has not been completely cured, the frequency of incidents has been greatly reduced. One of the three engines is running on a loop of track with no turnouts and has been incident free since the ground strap "fix". I'm contemplating adding a second ground strap to the other axle of the truck and running a wire from both straps to a frame ground to see if that helps. We're also looking at purchasing some good conductive grease to try. Any recommendations?

I would avoid conductive grease. If they just put a conductive material into grease that makes the current flow through the grease as high resistance. So yeah sure, it's conductive VS completely non-conductive, but it's also not low resistance. Fine if trying to dissipate static or stray charges, terrible for transmitting actual power. Again, while a lube might have graphite or some other method of making it conductive, the result is a high resistance which does nothing for transmitting high (all things relative) current low resistance needed for good DCS signal and power.

What you need is a very thin light lube that allows actual metal to metal contact, which still being lubrication.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/labelle-oils

Also, does your engine in the drawbar have the connecting ground spring wire? This little wire attempts to short the frame ground of the tender drawbar post to the mounting screw at the engine of the wireless drawbar.

@clem k posted:

OK looked at mine, no metal washer. Just a black  plastic sleeve on top and a clear plastic sleeve on underside.

As seen in this topic https://ogrforum.com/...ss-draw-bar-question

As an example from MTH parts you cut to length or order the length of your drawbar. FYI, drawbars have silkscreened on them the length in MM.

and the insulator holding mechanism

Related subject https://ogrforum.com/...ender-wiper-question

Vernon, these engines did not come with the drawbar ground wire. Might be worth a try though. I suppose the loop end of the wire attaches at the engine drawbar screw. How does the other end connect to the tender mounting post?

The last time I had the engine shell off, I tried to trace the "hot" wires from the rollers. I didn't really want to get too far into the wiring harness, but it appears the power goes to the drawbar/tender first before coming back to the engine/motor board. If that's the case, a good ground between tender and engine definitely makes sense. 

@rickoshay posted:

Vernon, these engines did not come with the drawbar ground wire. Might be worth a try though. I suppose the loop end of the wire attaches at the engine drawbar screw. How does the other end connect to the tender mounting post?

The last time I had the engine shell off, I tried to trace the "hot" wires from the rollers. I didn't really want to get too far into the wiring harness, but it appears the power goes to the drawbar/tender first before coming back to the engine/motor board. If that's the case, a good ground between tender and engine definitely makes sense.

It just springs against the post of the tender drawbar connector from the side when you insert it through the hole. That's why you need both parts, the plastic cover that snaps over the drawbar AND the formed metal spring wire as they work together to press the wire against the drawbar at both ends.

@Vernon Barry posted:

As an example from MTH parts you cut to length or order the length of your drawbar. FYI, drawbars have silkscreened on them the length in MM.

and the insulator holding mechanism

Thanks Vernon! I don't have the engine/tender here so couldn't examine the mounting post. I may try to fashion a ground tether wire (HA! HA!) just for giggles and see if that helps before ordering the correct parts.