Powered or Dummy B Units?

Dummy.  My average train is no more than 14 cars.  But he should stock spare mechanisms, for two reasons - for you, and for failures.

I would prefer the option of "A" or "B" units to be a dummy.  I am 2R only.  My reasons are, I'd like to repower them with my drives and, just possibly, convert some to Proto 48.

I asked Scott about the same issue and he pretty mush blew me off.

Jay

Powered WITH SOUND!  It really sounds great to have a long train come by with sound coming out of each engine, so I'm getting rid of the 'dead' engines I have.  My cab units are Atlas O Erie Built AB, Atlas O F2 AA, Weaver Passenger Shark AB, Lionel Centipede AA, Lionel E6 AA, and Lionel E7 AA all with power and sound (plus a powered Lionel E7 B unit I'm trying to get sound added).  I think it would be great if all the manufacturers offered each of their A and B cab units with power and sound as an option, but currently only Atlas O does.

Ron

Ron,

All you have to do is add a speaker in the dummy unit and get the sound from another unit so equipped. 

Just my thoughts!

Jay

I think it would be great if the option was dummy or powered on all units - but lately it seems that most purchasers want to open the box and run.  Get Jay to sell you the innards, or even to power your B.  A win- win.

Yes powered B would be great. I think it was in the late 90s that K-Line offered an A-B-A with 2 motors in each unit. It was referred to as a "Stump Puller" in one of the mags.

3-rail here.

My personal opinion would be to have a prototypically correct A-B + B-A FT set, with the A-B pair being CORRECTLY drawbar connected just like the real FTs were. I would also prefer to have two powered A units, PLUS one powered B unit. Thus, I could operate JUST an A-B pair occasionally, and still haul a fair sized train.

Before the advent of command control, B dummies were the only way to go if you wanted a multiple unit set-up. Now with DCS and TMCC/Legacy powered B units are the only way to go. Plus, I have a hard time justifying spending over $250 or more for a dummy unit. For the extra price of the electronics, having the B unit powered is a no brainer IMHO. I have a Milwaukee Road F7 ABBA pulling 11 passenger cars and it looks great! It is power, power, dummy, dummy, my only choice from Lionel. What I consider a glaring omission on Lionel's part is that the dummy B unit doesn't even offer smoke. For what it's worth I think that all dummy or non-powered units should at minimum have smoke.

I'm all for powered Bs.  Twenty five to thirty cars up 2.5% demand real power.

ChipR

2R;  dummy;  cost.

And, though you did not ask, ideally I'd prefer it if:

  - all diesels and electrics were offered in powered and dummy versions

  - all powered units were offered, as they say in HO, "DCC ready" -- no electronics.

Again, the reason is cost.  I'd buy more units if they cost me less.

Best rgds, SZ

I would like to see how the breakdown plays out between 2R & 3R.  I'm 2R and I have A B units that will pull 100 cars (looks kinda silly though).  Why would I want more power than required to pull our longest trains.

No disrespect implied or intended but I'll bet most of the folks demanding all units powered are 3 rail modelers.  Again, nothing wrong with that but it appears, to me, that's the case.

Jay

There's no such thing as too much power, so count me in on powered B units. I have several powered B units for my ABBA's and ABBBA's. If I run a 2 or 3 unit consist they are all powered (Dash 8's, or 9's, GP60M & B etc etc)so why not offer more powered B units.

Im 2 rail and from a cost point of view, dummies are expensive, for a few dollars more you might as well have power, and sound. This seems to apply to all the manufacturers.    Stephen     (cTr....Choose the Right)

My preference would be powered B-units and non-powered A units so you could put in a cab interior and an additional speaker for sound. 

I like the fact that Lionel has usually been offering their F3 and F7 locomotives as AA pairs (one powered / one non-powered) and then ala carte B-units: both powered and non-powered.  On my favorite road-names, I like to run ABBBA configurations.    Usually at least 2 powered units.

For some strange reason though, Lionel has yet to produce a non-powered B-unit in the CP livery, since they've been producing scale F3/F7's.  They did back in the MPC/LTI days, but there are enough subtle differences that I keep waiting for them to produce the scale non-powered B-unit.  If they don't,  I may just bite the bullet and get another powered B-unit.

David

I'm in 2-rail.  

I would not buy a dummy unit.   I prefer powered.  

I use my layout for operations - - ie switching specific cars with switchlists.   A dummy unit has no use.   It is just dead weight on the grade and there is no switchiing to be done with it.   It would have no use in one of my trains.

And generally I need 2 powered units to pull my longer freights on the 1 1/2% grade.    

By the way, a friend of mine tried to base his whole fleet on powered units with trailing dummies with sound.   He had to give the idea up.   A single loco could not pull the sound-dummy and a train on his layout.

3 Rail

If they are command units able to accurately be put in a MU then I prefer powered.  I currently have a Legacy ABBA F3 where as both B units are powered.  I have no fear of pulling a long train of heavy passenger cars.

In nearly all cases, I prefer powered B units. Not utilizing a dummy engine as power is dragging dead weight around. If the factory can give me a powered B unit with DCC control, that's great. Otherwise I power my own and tie them together DCC-wise with MU connections between units.

Not to mention the non-powered B-units are essentially very expensive boxcars.  Most of the newer ones don't even have smoke, sounds, or electro-couplers.    At least that's been my experience from Lionel.

David

As long as at least 2 are powered, it doesn't matter to me which of the ABA are powered.  But I do want sound, lights, smoke, and remote couplers on all.  I'm 3R.  And this goes not just for AB units, but all diesels.  I've gotten myself 3 old MTH GP38-2 units and I plan to mod them such that I can either triple, double, or single head a train with them.  The only bad thing is they are too old to have smoke.

2 rail, and I prefer the dummy as my passenger train would be about 8 cars and think the powered A unit enough to pull the train on mostly a level layout. The cost savings of a dummy  B would be enough to buy more freight cars not that I need anymore.

Phil 

I'm a 3 rail interloper but when talking about an ABA consist, I prefer a powered B unit. This give me the option of having options of running 2 powered units for big trains or splitting them up with a single A on one train and an AB consist on a second (with the B pushing the dummy A around).

Just my $0.02.

Gilly

My preference is for the importer to offer unpowered B units with an available after market  powering kit (I upgraded several AtlasO Erie built FM's from dummies to powered using cataloged parts).  Based on my search of the AtlasO parts catalog, there is broad commonality of drive train parts among their China Drive diesels.  The dummy trucks had the entire drive train - less the motor!  Other than the sound board, I believe an upgrade kit could be packaged so as not to be locomotive specific.

Ed Rappe

a 2 railer running 30+ car freight trains on 2.2% grade helper district

I three rail (if I had it to do all over again would be into 2 rail, but at this point I already have most of the engines I want).  Personally, I like "dummy" B's as I would run an AB with a passenger set, and appreciate the cost savings. 

Jim

Ed - the China Drive components are sufficiently similar that I have interchanged them.  I needed SD trucks for a project, so stole them from an Atlas, then salvaged the nice body with Weaver Alco six wheel trucks.  Not much of a problem.

Ugly, and could be lower, but works.

My impression is that the Sunset trucks are not vertical motor style, so that solution won't work.  

Have you all asked Scott if he stocks just the power trucks?  He surely ordered some spares.

OK, so modelers of ALL OTHER railroads that purchased FT sets with drawbar coupled A & B units are then excluded, just because the Santa Fe was "special"? 

My understanding is that most RRs eventually removed the drawbars and installed couplers.    As they gained experience, the RRs decided that they did not always need the HP from 4 units, so they wanted to run A-B-A sets, and some ordered more sets to use the extra A-Units.    There were of course other flexible combinations desired also to cause the change.     So I think as stated, most were delivered as built with drawbars, excepting SF I guess.    But most also were changed over before too long.   

Besides, who can see the coupler or the drawbar under there from 3 ft away while running trains.    And if you can, it is easy enough to remove the couplers and install drawbars.   After all, as modelers, we are supposed to have some mechanical skills.

Now I'm not the brightest person around but in my mind it would be very easy to create a mount, under the locos, that would provide for couplers or drawbars.  As Sheldon would say, "Easy peazy".  Let the modeler use whichever they prefer.

Jay

Not necessarily so. Of course there were exceptions, such as the DL&W who ordered special short "B" units (the SB model) so as to have A-B-A sets. The other railroad that also preferred A-B-A sets was the CB&Q, and they simply ordered F2A units, in order to break-up their A-B + B-A FTs, thus giving an A-B FT pair, plus an F2A on the other end. The FT A-B pairs were STILL drawbar connected together. In fact, many railroads did indeed retain their FT A-B pairs drawbar connected until they were traded in to EMD for GP20s and GP30s, and GP35s. 

The Cotton Belt and the Rio Grande were the others to order FTs with couplers vs drawbars between the A and the B.  The Rio Grande also bought some with drawbars between the A and the B.  There were never drawbars between the Bs.  It was a maintenance "feature" .

One must recall this was the first long haul freight diesel locomotive.  Up until that time each railroad had it's own interpretation of what was best for that purpose.  Then GM comes alone with a one size fits all locomotive???  Not hardly.  FTs actually came in more aesthetic variations than just about any other single EMD locomotive before or since.   Scott has been trying very hard to balance all these variations with the need to keep costs vs the market in check.  It would be easy to discount the couplers at all except the ATSF was the largest purchaser and had almost every variation they could come up with on their units vs the original demonstrators.  For example, the "electric" brake was their idea. So, they are the only road to have all three variations of the electric brake; called dynamic brakes by phase III.  All roads that had dynamic brakes bought units with phase III brakes so the 3rd rail models will only come with phase III dynamic brakes.

The problem for picky modelers like me is going to be the space between the A and the B with couplers.  GM even had to come up with a very short coupler and a different mount for the ATSF.  There is very little distance between the back ends of the As and Bs and the trucks.  So As and Bs that were really about 18-24" apart are going to be almost 4 times that in the models to accommodate available couplers.  So I'm going to be coming up with a short drawbar for mine.  Easy and simple solution for me.

FWIW, Intermountain is doing FTs in HO.  They are only selling theirs as AB pairs with a very short coupler between them.

Picture of Intermountain ATSF Warbonnet FTs.

What about the EMC FT Demonstrator set? They had no "dynamic brake" at all, since it hadn't been invented in 1939, and Scott has announced an EMC "Demonstrator set".

No, the Demos will not have dynamic brakes.  My point is that the phase I and II dynamic brakes will not be modeled.

I just need to repeat for those who are interested but may not know, 1 Dec is the cutoff date for reservations.  Only 500 units are going to be produced in one run.  That's only  125 ABBA sets.  I had hoped it would be two runs 6 months or so apart but the builder said no.

I would prefer powered B units and dummy A units.   WHY?

So I could seriously detail the cab of the A units and not worry about the drive and electronics.

I just pre-ordered the DL&W AB set in 2 rail, but I want a powered B unit.

POWERED UNITS, no dummies PLEASE

always

I run long trains and a dummy is just dead weight, since I run analog momentum power I tend to jumper the power for more even performance anyway, 

I thought this was a feature for the DCC crowd too, to synch command across receivers.

Verdad?

We have considered the fact that almost every order of FT is at least 1 AB set, so here are the changes for the FT Project:

1. 2R A and B Powered. A has the QSI System and B has a motor and possibly a second speaker. There will be a  tether between the A and B Units.

2. 2R A and B Units can be connected with a prototypical drawbar. Included in the box. Mounts on the cars will accept Kadees if needed.

3. 3R A is powered, B is dummy but these too are tethered for the 4 pickup rollers. The B Unit may also contain a 2nd Speaker, lights etc.

That is where we are going on the FTs.

Thank you all for your input and pushing for something better.

Scott Mann