Prewar Flyer and it’s crazy numbering system question

I share your confusion Steve, and it's only grown over the years.  I'd be curious to know as well.

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out AF's numbering scheme. When dealing with their wide gauge pieces the locomotive had one number, the tender something else and put together they made a completely different third number!

Lionel is easy, I like easy when it comes to my trains

according to the Catalog for 1938 - which was the year for the curly-Q coupler the engine tender combination is listed as 4615-4.  

In order to learn Flyer, catalogs become a necessity.   And even then, it can be challenging at times.  Wide gauge is cake compared to O.

Steve,

Following up on Robert Butler's post:

The engine and tender combination that you have only occurred in the 1938 catalog.  The combination headed up two sets however.

The passenger set had the 3171 and 3172 blue and silver wide/low profile passenger cars.

I haven't seen many boxed original sets, but I don't think this engine tender combination was available any other year.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Ives1122 and Mr Butler and Mr Turinetti  all have great points. I would only add that the 4615 loco also came as a 2-6-4 and was designated 4615-6 in its combination with its tender.

I recently picked up a type 4 and a type 9 tender both with curly-q couplers, although I doubt the authenticity of the type 4 as they were not used after 1935. But the type 9 sheet metal tender for Torpedo locos was used from 1936-'39 so that one could be genuine. They came together with a 3211 caboose with curly-qs.

Jim,

The Type IV (4) tender had a curly-q (sheet metal knuckle) Type X coupler in 1939 when it was used in the double header set.  It was the tender behind the powered locomotive.  The dummy locomotive had a curly-q on the front.

Sorry for the fuzzy shot on this one.

Are you sure about the other tender being a type 9? That is a sheet metal semi Vanderbilt only made in 1934 and I don't remember it coming with a torpedo engine. 

Are you thinking of a type XII?  It was available from 1936 to 1939.  The 1939 version was grey and had the curly-q coupler.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I haven't taken a photo yet but it is listed in the Kimball book as a type 9 with type 8 trucks. The body is this style with curly-q on one end.

The type 4 needs re-stamping as the sideboards are blank but the handrails are intact. I'll snap photos this weekend.

Jim, 

I see that we are using two different resources.  You are using the version edited by Steven Kimball.

And I am using the second edition by Allan Schuweiler:

which is the revised edition, published in 1997.  I have both versions but I only refer to Schuweiler's version.

In his Introduction to the Revised Edition Schuweiler explains that "While this book uses some information - primarily from the detailed listings - from the previous edition, it is thoroughly revised, based on extensive new research, as an attempt to put order into a confusing line."

I think that is where the difference in our identification of the tenders comes from.  I look forward to seeing your photos.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I've always wondered if there is a mix of numbering made by collectors or authors of book when it comes to at least "types". Type 1-2-3-4-5 (or roman numerals I-II-III-IV-V) trucks, couplers etc.. Did American Flyer ever use that method of identification? And is there any original (or copies of)  American Flyer Manufacturing Company shop or office records of how they numbered the trains AND the parts at the Chicago facility to 1938 ( Pre-A.C. Gilbert Company)? There had to be. I've been around many factories and there has to be a part number for everything or production performance and quality would be at 10% of capable capacity.

Also, I have a hard time with some parts companies that still have very old stock of Chicago Flyer parts. I won't mention names but definitely not talking about one's like Henning's & Tebolt. They are great & easy. I mean at least a couple that carry thousands of parts in S scale and others that just have a zillion pages of part numbers with a description like "American Wheel O Gauge" or even "American Flyer Metal Part". Is there a website for prewar Flyer that has a list that matches the part to the part number? Just hollow eyelet type rivets can be very confusing. And I have a big old cast iron 4 foot tall Chicago Rivet & Machine Co. rivet/eyelet press for when I used to do restorations, and I still went crazy calling them about what dies, rivets & eyelets I needed! If you Google Chicago Rivet you should see a photo of my press. You hold the part over a pin that holds the eyelet and press the pedal to roll the eyelet like factory. (I probably should sell it because it's sat in a corner for years).

Still many American Flyer mysteries for over 80 years!  Maybe they were worried about spies from competition???

Someday I would love to add a Flyer passenger set to my roster. I just do not know which one as I am not that knowledgable about Flyer. I have always liked theirgreen or blue cars.

Joe Gozzo

I have a 4 car set of the green-blue (or aqua) with silver roofs 3 x 3171 & 3172 like in the photo above. The bodies are the "exact" shade of green that my late Presidents Special car's bodies are. (Not the earlier Rolls Royce blue that came with the ele. Commander loco, but the green cars that were the very last to be produced). I plan to put them behind my O ga. 3322 Piper when finished because the late wide gauge green Pres. cars came with a steam loco and probably a Piper loco. Does anyone know where I could find that shade of green or aqua paint? I probably need to make a new post for this question because I'm responding to a response and not to the original posting topic.

About this original posting:

I may have more time to join in here, and not just read the tinplate forum every morning like I've done for years now. I have one question for you guys, and I'm not sure if everyone has reasons or there's rules of ethics between you guys, but I saw that loco auction on what some call "The Chesapeake BAY". Are all of you communicating? Or are maybe 5 to 10 of you secretly bidding against each other, driving up (even doubling-tripling) the final cost to your friend? It's just a question. If I get on here I want to play by the rules. And I'm not just talking about the rules of the webmaster, the rules that bond the friendship here. I live west of Louisville, KY in southern IN and there are ZERO people that are into (or ever had been into) prewar trains. And I think every time I show a person my collection for the past 30 years they have NEVER seen the huge standard gauge antique trains. Not even a number 8! They look for 5 minutes and usually ask "why do you spend that much money of that?" - "show me that incredible gun collection". My gun collection is probably worth 5% of my trains. It's a different world around here. It seems that the "banjo music" still plays in these parts!

400BILL no collusion with respect to bidding here.  I do "know" Greg in the sense that he and I and several others who are interested in pre-war Flyer have exchanged numerous side e-mails on various aspects of sets/set composition/production dates/product variation etc. over the years but the focus has always been on the history of Flyer manufacturing.  To the best of my knowledge the only "rules" are sharing information about American Flyer on an as-I-have-time-to-post-it basis. Out of curiosity, what is "The Chesapeake bay"?

  With respect to Flyer mysteries - one big difference between Flyer and Lionel is that Flyer went through 3 changes in management which also meant they went through 3 changes in their view of what a toy train should be.  On top of this, within each of the management cycles there were changes in direction, some driven by the competition, some driven by their own "vision" of the company, and some driven by who knows what.  

  The other thing about Flyer is they did not have the Lionel attitude about what-you-see-in-the-catalog-is-what-you-get.  They were far more willing to change set contents on demand for various large buyers of their product and if a mistake was made on the production line (i.e. feeding pre-punched base plates for the #97 long base freight station into the bending press the wrong way resulting in the crane being on the left hand side instead of the cataloged right hand side) which did not impact the functioning of the product - they shipped it.

Couple all of the above with the loss of continuity with respect to preservation of corporate records and you get a basket full of unexplained and, at this late date, probably never to be resolved mysteries...of course, for myself and others, this is part of the fun of collecting and running American Flyer pre-war trains.

Robert,

Thanks for answering some of these questions and how other's are also intrigued with history and the history of antique train manufacturers.

The "C Bay" was because I've seen that there is a particular rule about a website (and most popular to buy trains from) not to use their full name here. So I've seen every name of a Bay used to reference where the loco in this posting was bought from for expample, but never with the letter e in front of it. So I do not want to get into trouble, and I actually like the no "P" no "R" rule here. All one has to do is go to a gun forum and see it is so insulting. That put me into a "no social media of any kind mindset". People seem friendly and positive here. Nobody gets called a horrible name for owning a 400E, domestic or imported. I enjoyed the original vs. reproduction posting last week. I was going to post, but I thought that one could be a "hotter potato" than regular questions. Maybe I should post there, because of what I explained above about ZERO tinplate-standard gauge in this area and my reason for buying replica tinplate.

When MTH started making tinplate traditions I bought almost everything in every catalog that was the same color as original. We both (my wife & I) were making good money then too. I know I spent 6 figures. Then the internet & the "The Bay" arrived with more & more original prewar. And then by chance I made a bet friend in Germany that started trading me Marklin Spur 1 for Lionel standard gauge. So I finally started seeing my Asian made 10' x 30' train layout looking more & more like a giant fake Rolex watch for $10 at a gas station (just to me). So I ended up selling it all on the C Bay. I even remember worrying about going over 50K in sales 1 year because of tax forms (1099). But I got less than 40% of what I paid and had all receipts. Then, I started over. I'll see if I can post photos of my old all replica layout & collection. 90% is all gone and replaced. I did save replica trains like Rich-Art, Varney-Sirus, Lion Lines States cars with early (1973) Williams 408E etc. I just had so much Bling that it looked like when I saw Pink Floyd! I needed patina, and got it.

I was having trouble inserting photos. Wow! I remember it used to be very hard to do here, like sending to photobucket and stand on 1 foot and double click both buttons. Now it's  Ctrl C then Ctrl V! Great! I have photos. This is part of my upstairs house addition for trains up and my wife's want downstairs back when most of it was all replica trains & layout. The only part that turned out so bad is that I could not build the addition onto the old part and walls going all the way up to the ceiling for shelves. Our old house has 10' ceiling. I even made the addition (downstairs) floor step down 1' and 9' ceiling and I still have only half a wall for shelves. Now, I have stacks of banana boxes full of trains that I've forgot I even had.

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Jim, 

I see that we are using two different resources.  You are using the version edited by Steven Kimball.

And I am using the second edition by Allan Schuweiler:

which is the revised edition, published in 1997.  I have both versions but I only refer to Schuweiler's version.

In his Introduction to the Revised Edition Schuweiler explains that "While this book uses some information - primarily from the detailed listings - from the previous edition, it is thoroughly revised, based on extensive new research, as an attempt to put order into a confusing line."

I think that is where the difference in our identification of the tenders comes from.  I look forward to seeing your photos.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

 

Here are the two tenders I was referring to that I picked up a few weeks ago. Sorry if they are fuzzy.

Type 4 (according to Kimball) without the American Flyer Lines rubber stamping

Type 9 with type 8 trucks (according to Kimball). Seller told me this one was numbered 1231P?

I am striving to purchase a copy of Schuweiler's version of the Flyer reference book if I can find one for under $150.00.

400BILL, I  think you've come to the right place.  For me it is all good - modern replica, originals, mixed manufacturers, whatever - as long as it is tinplate I'm interested in seeing what people have done and hearing about their finds and what they have found out about whatever aspect of tinplate they are interested in. 

  I too remember when one needed advanced training in security ciphers before one could get a picture posted - the new format is great and I'm sure it is the reason for a real increase in posted pictures about almost everything train related.  The pictures also make it a lot easier to appreciate what others have found/are running/have restored, etc.

Jim O'C posted:

Here are the two tenders I was referring to that I picked up a few weeks ago. Sorry if they are fuzzy.

Type 4 (according to Kimball) without the American Flyer Lines rubber stamping (Type IV Tender    1939 -1940    with Type XII trucks -  according to Schuweiler)

Type 9 with type 8 trucks (according to Kimball). Seller told me this one was numbered 1231P?

(Type XII (B)   Sheet  Metal Tender  Type XII truck.  This truck was used in 1937.  It is cataloged  as No. 1231 according to Schuweiler)

I am striving to purchase a copy of Schuweiler's version of the Flyer reference book if I can find one for under $150.00.

Jim,

I edited in the identification from Schuweiler's book.  I will keep my eyes open for a copy of his version for you.  It can be found for less than $150.00  Good Luck!

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Thanks for your help, Greg.