Pricing of our new trains

I agree that the prices in the new Lionel catalog are shocking.  However, I think that much of the stuff will soon be found on the secondary market for much less.  I mostly buy trains at shows.  Trains are getting to be sold like automobiles, almost no one pays MSRP.

NH Joe

I don't even bother trying to fool myself into thinking I can afford any of the new stuff. I see the prices and think, even if I wanted it, I couldn't justify spending that on one purchase. Plus, I don't want the problems associated with all the electronics and operating systems either.

I've read enough posts here with the subject matter dealing with the horror stories associated with the electrical and technical problems of the new stuff. For those that like it and can afford it, more power to you. I'll stick with analog, I can actually relax and watch a train run on my temporary Carpet Central.

I grew up with O scale and HO. I was into HO for many years, and, was a rivet counter, kit bashed a lot of stuff. When I got back into trains, I decided I'd model O scale. My eyes aren't like they used to be, and, my hands not steady anymore, being the reason. Plus, I'd like to try kit bashing again, this time with O scale.

I actually like the new stuff, I like watching it run in a video or at a train show, I just won't ever own any of it, myself, it's way beyond my budget.

Rusty

The TMCC stuff is already affordable and the first generation Legacy stuff is getting to that point, too....especially on models that have been reissued.

Price aside, I've found my personal sweet spot to be the first round of Legacy steamers (most w/o whistle steam) and TMCC with RailSounds Five.  I prefer the first gen Legacy b/c they seem to be more reliable, have engine specific crew talk, and just plain run.  No drama....and four chuffs.  (I've found that I get bored with newer Legacy locos without the specific crew talk, especially with the same voice recording on the generic talk.)

In other words, I've predominantly become a secondary market guy.

I also essentially ignore the Lionel Catalogs b/c experience has taught me that the models will NOT show up as depicted in the catalog....for better or worse.  Until I see and hear a loco run, I have nothing but skepticism towards it.  Guilty until proven innocent for me to pay the $$$.

I also refuse to partake in the BTO scam. 

Some of my favorite engines are the pre-electronic hoopla versions that when translated into 2018 $$$ were a lot more affordable than most of what is out there today.  They may not have all the added on detail and they aren't as delicate and ornate,  however they are great fun to run and have characteristics that I love. 

I will add that I  just bought a Lionchief Mikado KATY with Bluetooth and it is a great bang for the buck engine (love the Bluetooth app).  It was a little pricy but it's hard to find KATY, FRISCO & MOPAC steam engines that are semi scale (still hoping for future releases).

I also agree with Berkshire President about the BTO scam, makes the item sound more exclusive, which means more $$$.  Those products are still out there at the pre-order prices months after delivery to the dealers.

I prefer MTH for running and don't like having to run the newer ABA diesels as lash ups. I have one and won't be buying any more. Although I have way too many trains and try NOT to buy more, I find my sweet spot to be PS2 and don't even worry about whether its 3 volt or 5 volt. Good cosmetics and it can be fixed, particularly if the price is right.

Gerry 

I haven't bought any new engines in many years. I usually just wait until I see it on the secondary market. Usually save at least 25%. It also helps that I really don't "need" any more engines. Have almost all I care to run. Really can't justify the sticker prices. I was in a very competitively priced train store the other day and saw single unit diesels for well over $500!  

Diverging Clear posted:

I don't even bother trying to fool myself into thinking I can afford any of the new stuff. I see the prices and think, even if I wanted it, I couldn't justify spending that on one purchase. Plus, I don't want the problems associated with all the electronics and operating systems either.

I've read enough posts here with the subject matter dealing with the horror stories associated with the electrical and technical problems of the new stuff. For those that like it and can afford it, more power to you. I'll stick with analog, I can actually relax and watch a train run on my temporary Carpet Central.

I grew up with O scale and HO. I was into HO for many years, and, was a rivet counter, kit bashed a lot of stuff. When I got back into trains, I decided I'd model O scale. My eyes aren't like they used to be, and, my hands not steady anymore, being the reason. Plus, I'd like to try kit bashing again, this time with O scale.

I actually like the new stuff, I like watching it run in a video or at a train show, I just won't ever own any of it, myself, it's way beyond my budget.

Rusty

Just wait it out.I like late model steam locomotives.Lionel came out with a berkshire that has a lowed headlight c&o type.At the time the locomotive was priced at $111.00.SAY WHAT?!!At a train show I came across one on sale for $375.00.I could not turn away I brought.

seaboardm2 posted:

Just wait it out.I like late model steam locomotives.Lionel came out with a berkshire that has a lowed headlight c&o type.At the time the locomotive was priced at $111.00.SAY WHAT?!!At a train show I came across one on sale for $375.00.I could not turn away I brought.

Guessing you meant $1200 for sale at $375, a great engine at a fantastic price. Well done sir!!

(Still have NO idea why Lionel TMCC steam engines were not built with 4 chuffs. Or 100 speed steps like K-Line...)

Slow down there fellas, nobody noticed the price of the diesels went down $50 from the last few catalogs and the steamers are down $100. The freight cars haven't changed in price but since they are now putting those Weaver trucks on them I will not be purchasing any.

Price is one thing, how long it lasts is another. Remember the Acela.

If the market doesn't bear it, prices will drop. As for my two hobbies - trains and golf - I have never paid full price. Secondary markets (even buying "old new stock") is how I go about my business. Then, if I need/want to resell, I usually break even.  If I pay full price, I still find the LionChief and LionChief Plus prices reasonable. Since I never intend to go Legacy, I guess I've spared myself some of the sticker shock. 

This Hobby has never been cheap. I've got a small Postwar collection that includes a couple complete, boxed sets (1467W and 1515WS).

The boxes for said sets have the prices marked and both were between $45 - $50 in the early 1950s (1950 for the 1467 and 1954 I believe for the 1515). Run those numbers through an inflation calculator and both sets are selling for $450-$500 in today's dollars, just about the same as Lionel, MTH, and Williams starter sets are selling for today.

$45-$50 was a good weeks pay, or more, back then. Nothing new to the prices or "affordability" to this hobby.

I have my postwar Boxes on display in my train room - I typically throw out boxes but I think the Postwar boxes are cool as hell. Someone pointed to the prices on both set boxes mentioned above and asked if that's what I really paid for them. I said, "add a few zeros...." . Person was even more surprised to learn the age of the boxes and that the trains still ran!

Yes, in 1949 a Lionel 675 K4 engine sold for $28., which is $286. in today's money. But today, they sell on eBay for $75. (or less). Plus, mine is still chugging along after almost 70 years. 

Like many have already stated I have just about been priced out of this hobby.  I was never one to buy the high end steam because it has always been too costly but $500 diesels is way more than I can justify.  90% of what I buy is secondary market, from time to time I do get good deals on rolling stock, accessories and even some older and low end engines from some of the local hobby shops.

The alarming trend is the pricing of the intermediate stuff, the step above entry level but not top of the line.

I have the money but VALUE has always been an important factor in any purchasing decision. I am not about to spend $500 let alone $2000 on any engine. My layout is my artists canvas and whether they are MPC, Kuhn era Lionel or modern Lionel they all look the same running around the layout. The importers are out to make the highest profit that they can, price everything accordingly and there are always a few that will pay any price. Point is that if you look online you can find everything you need to construct a beautiful layout at a very reasonable price. The secondary market is flooded with trains.

Just for fun, take a look at the 1993 Lionel Christmas catalog.  There's Pere Marquette Berkshire in it.  The tooling around 60 years old at the time.  The engine has a mechanical smoke unit, and RailSounds 1.0 inside a 2046W type tender.  No command.

Price?  $999.95.

The LionChief Plus Berks 25 years later for the half the price sure seem like a better deal!

Jon

There's a VERY noticeable increase in the number of folks admitting they already have more trains than they deserve.  And it's more than their great-great-grandchildren could ever use.  Let's face it, a lot of us here have been buying trains at a pretty good clip for 2 or 3 decades.  And some of us could EASILY stock a reasonably size train store with goods!    At that point, Lionel and MTH have gotta realize they're competing more against themselves than they are each other.  I don't have any silver bullet answers.  But a business model built on enthusiasts selling their existing trains to fund the purchase of buying the latest trains can only last so long.  It's certainly not a "growth model" per se, but that's exactly the behavior today's higher prices encourage for the shrinking segment of the market that can still afford the newest items.

David 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "I ain't gonna buy anything new at the present time and I won't in the future."

Joe, you are so right!  One of the things I'll do from time to time....for my own amusement or in response to a customer's (LHS) caustic comment re today's pricing...is quickly run some old advertised prices in this hobby through the Feds' Consumer Price Index calculator....

CPI Calculator Link

It's quite an eye-opener...as well as conversation-shortener!

My first Lionel set from 1950 had an MSRP of $69.95 printed in Lionel-blue ink on the end of the master box.  Today, that same set would have a price of about $690!   

A few years later I recall receiving 3 of the 2500-series aluminum passenger cars from Santa.  There was an add-on coach available at $9.95.  I was encouraged by my parents to save my money to buy this additional car....which I did.  Today, that same car would have an MSRP of about $92.  People say that Lionel trains are no longer affordable by kids of today.  I'm sure it would be as challenging to a kid in today's world to save that amount as it was for me to save $9.95...plus tax...back when/then.

Besides, most of the customer (LHS) price comments seem to come at Christmas time from grandparents wanting to buy their grand-Casey his first electric train.....like they had as a kid.  Their enthusiasm sometimes has a crash-and-burn when they see today's set prices!...which aren't that bad in the cpi context, IMHO.  But they're not $69.95 anymore, either!

But adding swinging bells, smoke from whistles and leaky joints, depleting coal loads, multiple speakers, full-range sound and speed controls, Indigo-tooth compatibility, and scale/detail fidelity to a toy train nowadays per our demands??.....what would one expect the prices to do?

Just MHO, of course...

KD

Joe Hohmann posted:

Yes, in 1949 a Lionel 675 K4 engine sold for $28., which is $286. in today's money. But today, they sell on eBay for $75. (or less). Plus, mine is still chugging along after almost 70 years. 

Can you buy a brand new locomotive of similar quality for $286?

Lots of folks like to trot out the good old inflation / cost caculator. But what of other things? What does a T.V. cost? How about a washer or dryer?

Plus, consider where toy trains were in the hierarchy back in the late forties and fifties. Todays trains are competing with Xbox, personal computers / tablets and such. And while I value the educational aspects of being into model railroading, I'd guess that most people do not.

I agree with Dave 100%. I am part of those increasing amount of folks that has bought enough trains over the past 30 years that my walls are full and there is no need to buy anymore trains. Unless it is something I really want and/or do not have, I am finished buying. If I buy something, then something has to go.

I wish this companies well in manufacturing and competing for the shrinking market out there. My son and my future grand kids have enough trains to keep them happy for a long time.

It's not just train price's that continually increase. Everything increases over time if the market keeps demand up enough. Try getting into RC if you really want to see some money fly out the door.

To Me trains are priced reasonable considering what they're capable of doing these days.

No one hardly ever mentions the cost of building a layout. Now that's the true money pit of our hobby.

Matt Makens posted:

Slow down there fellas, nobody noticed the price of the diesels went down $50 from the last few catalogs and the steamers are down $100. The freight cars haven't changed in price but since they are now putting those Weaver trucks on them I will not be purchasing any.

Those are not Weaver trucks.     

rustyrail o scale posted:

 

No one hardly ever mentions the cost of building a layout. Now that's the true money pit of our hobby.

Boom. +1

I showed my wife the Menard's site and she about choked on the prices. She doubly choked when I told her Menard's had the most reasonable prices around too. I try to remind myself that this is just one of those "First World Problems". 

Matt Makens posted:

Slow down there fellas, nobody noticed the price of the diesels went down $50 from the last few catalogs and the steamers are down $100. The freight cars haven't changed in price but since they are now putting those Weaver trucks on them I will not be purchasing any.

I think the niagara isn't as bad as it could have been either. The 100 year old muddy tooing of the VL hudson was $1599 MSRP and the best preorder price was just under $1400.

The Niagara is $1899 and can be had for under $1600....alot more locomotive and better detail.

Maybe Lionel is just numbing us to the prices....after the S3 was the deal of the century and then nearly doubled second time around.

"Hey Howard, what should we price this one at"?   "Ummmm......."

Diverging Clear posted:

I don't even bother trying to fool myself into thinking I can afford any of the new stuff. I see the prices and think, even if I wanted it, I couldn't justify spending that on one purchase. Plus, I don't want the problems associated with all the electronics and operating systems either.

I've read enough posts here with the subject matter dealing with the horror stories associated with the electrical and technical problems of the new stuff. For those that like it and can afford it, more power to you. I'll stick with analog, I can actually relax and watch a train run on my temporary Carpet Central.

Agreed, 100%.  Actually, I've never bought any new Lionel locomotives -- they have all been purchased secondhand at train shows or sometimes from online sellers.

The companies that put out the prices in the Catalog are MRP.  Go to any vendor and the price is somewhat cheaper.  The manufacturer has to cover costs, R&D, parts, labor, etc.  And also make a profit otherwise they wouldn't be in business.  This trickles down to the vendors which also have to make a profit.  You do get a break from the MRP, and if you wait it out can get it on the second market.  Yes we here probably have more then we need but not as many as we want.  That being said there will always be a market for the latest greatest that come out.  If you are in that group, get what you want.  If your not then when that person gets tired of the latest greatest you'll be able to pick it up for way under what he paid and will be a happy camper to own it.  Play with your trains.  We aren't here on this earth for that long, and when your gone so might be your trains?  Enjoy!!!

We often forget that if everyone waits to buy on the secondary market, there will be no primary market to make it to the secondary market.

All hobbies have gotten more expensive.  As a wanna be rock star, a decent entry level bass starts around $250, but a good one is easily $500 to several thousands of dollars.  I need to replace my drum set and it will be around $1000 when the time comes.  As a published photographer a professional lens will set you back at least $1000.  Repairs to broken lenses are almost as much as the lens itself.  For shooting enthusiasts a decent pistol is around $400-500.  A good rifle will set you back farther than that.  I won't get into those who restore old cars.  There are certainly other examples. 

Point is, hobbies are expensive and always have been if you want better quality, or better features.

First gen Legacy with engine specific dialogue! Oh, those were the days! 

laz1957 posted:

 Yes we here probably have more then we need but not as many as we want.  

Thats because its "prototypical". 

When is the last time you drove by a railyard and saw one locomotive or just 5 pieces of rolling stock?

Interesting comments.  My heart has always gone out to those who buy new trains.  I would be distraught at the new prices as well.   I prefer the LN/OB market. 

In my opinion the real elephant in the room, is the future when repair boards or parts aren't available for the newer exotic engines.   

KOOLjock1 posted:

Just for fun, take a look at the 1993 Lionel Christmas catalog.  There's Pere Marquette Berkshire in it.  The tooling around 60 years old at the time.  The engine has a mechanical smoke unit, and RailSounds 1.0 inside a 2046W type tender.  No command.

Price?  $999.95.

The LionChief Plus Berks 25 years later for the half the price sure seem like a better deal!

Jon

Fantastic observation. 

Deuce posted:

rustyrail o scale posted:

 

No one hardly ever mentions the cost of building a layout. Now that's the true money pit of our hobby.

Boom. +1

I showed my wife the Menard's site and she about choked on the prices. She doubly choked when I told her Menard's had the most reasonable prices around too. I try to remind myself that this is just one of those "First World Problems". 

I don't think layout construction is the money pit of the hobby.....although I think it's one of the most fun parts of the hobby.  Track and switches in used but like new condition sell pretty easily.  As do locomotives.  It's pretty easy to get decent to very good money back on these items.

To me, the biggest money pit in the hobby....and where you have the hardest time selling used equipment is......rolling stock.

I agree that pricing has risen sharply and Quality has diminished,I ordered the BTO SP AC 9 Steam Loco and it ran like a Swiss watch out of the box so in the end the price was justified because it did not have to go back for warranty work.

Mikey

IT's not so much the pricing as is our Wages have not gone up as much and the perceived quality of product has gone down.

Lionel trains (and American Flyer) were always out of price range for most middle and working class families in the 1950s (and earlier, or course).  In 1955, to pick a random year, the cheapest Lionel set was about $25.00 or so, which is $227 using the CPI calculator at the US Dept. of Labor.  That's about what a typical Lionel set goes for these days, so nothing much is changed.  What has changed is the typical MTH set is about $400, and the lowest priced Lionel set about $150.  The MTH set has lots of features not available in 1955, such as remote control, digital sound, command control, ability to manipulate locomotive function digitally, etc.  as does the typical Lionel set.  Even the cheapest Lionel set has most of these functions.  Overall quality and robustness, and the type of material used in construction may not be quite as high.  The track in the Lionel set is best of breed, with roadbed, and the MTH track is also significantly higher quality and safety than the 1955 track.

And the proportion of the population earning the 1955 adjusted average wage is significantly higher, skewed to the upper end in 2017, so more people could easily afford these prices. What has changed is that trains are no longer the premier toy that families are willing to sacrifice for in 2017.  They are a retro hobby with a limited following compared with a market that was 100 times larger or more back in 1955.  The economy of scale has been lost, so prices reflect these realities.  This has always been a "rich person's hobby" but the number of people willing to stretch their budget is drastically smaller.

Most people who own both a car and a horse, or a car and a motorcycle are stretching their budgets to accommodate their passions.  Trains, horses and motorcycles are not necessities.  Complaining about the cost of trains is not like complaining about the cost of bread. 

Are you sure they aren't Weaver trucks? Plastic bolster, phony springs and thumb tack uncoupler, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck it prolly a Weaver truck. $120 freight car with third rate trucks and another $30 to buy good trucks. No thanks, I have more than enough freight cars at the moment. But hey, they have Kadee mounting pads.

I'm with Mr. Morlitz re: having to run the MTH ABA Diesels as a lash-up does not appeal to me either. Won't be buying any more either.   Joe

The items in the catalog are real nice, unfortunately I can not afford them.
It is like Lionel is bringing back the 50's/60's when I was a kid. 
I could not afford them at that time either.
Guess that I will have to do what I did back then, save my money and maybe get a paper route
To bad MARX is not around to buy trains at a lower cost?