Problem with new/unused 164 log loader

One problem with a lot of the repro accessories is dried grease.  These mechanisms sit around for years and end up with grease that becomes like glue.  Since you have voltage to the motor, it would be nice to know if it is drawing any current.  I use bench D.C. supplies to power the motors bypassing the internal supplies in this situation.  (Note  You need to disconnect at least one motor lead to prohibit power from being applied to the internal electronics).  Since the supplies have both voltage and current meters I can make a judgement as to what is going on.   If possible. lift one of the motor leads and insert an ammeter in the circuit.  If current is flowing, the mechanism is probably stuck.  Be careful not to let the supply on for any extended period as you can damage the electronics supplying power to the motor.  If this is the case, you will need to disassemble the mechanism and clean it thoroughly.  Then lubricate with fresh lubricant.  I hope this helps.  

Best regards,

Phranzdan

found this on the Lionel website, hope it helps 

Thanks, I got the lights and the unload motor to work, but not the drive motor to lift the logs.  Going to the LHS tomorrow to see if they can fix it.  Called Loinel and they did not have the motor in stock.  Hoping the LHS does.

Hello Tony H,

I have the same problem with my loader. What ended up being your issue? How did you get it fixed? What appreciate and help or feedback.

J

Answer, buy the original 164 log loader, they work perfect. Never had a problem. The new one is a piece of junk.

Penn Pacific. There is nothing on your reply.

I found my (postwar) "original" in a hobby shop on the south end of Atlanta while attending a convention there in 1992. I travelled light, with only a Samsonite suit bag, so on the return flight to SoCal, the 164 went through the airport's security X-Ray without the least comment from the operator. ???  The suit bag didn't fit under the seat, but it fit nicely in the overhead bin. The 164 was in excellent cosmetic condition and has always worked perfectly.

@OddIsHeRU posted:

I found my (postwar) "original" in a hobby shop on the south end of Atlanta while attending a convention there in 1992. I travelled light, with only a Samsonite suit bag, so on the return flight to SoCal, the 164 went through the airport's security X-Ray without the least comment from the operator. ???  The suit bag didn't fit under the seat, but it fit nicely in the overhead bin. The 164 was in excellent cosmetic condition and has always worked perfectly.

The 1992 convention, now THAT is a throwback.  That was our second TCA convention at the Westin Peachtree Plaza if I remember correctly.  We had a ball.

@hesseljr posted:

Hello Tony H,

I have the same problem with my loader. What ended up being your issue? How did you get it fixed? What appreciate and help or feedback.

J

They did fix it, i have to look at the repair paperwork to see what they did, since is has been over 5 years, still works great.  On vacation so will check when i get back next week to what they wrote down.

Hello Tony - Thank you for the reply. I hope you had a great vacation. Were you able to look up what repair was done?

@hesseljr posted:

Hello Tony - Thank you for the reply. I hope you had a great vacation. Were you able to look up what repair was done?

Yes, sorry for the delay.  According the repair paperwork, they had to replace the can motor.  That was in 2018 and it still works fine. 

@hesseljr posted:

Hello Tony - Thank you for the reply. I hope you had a great vacation. Were you able to look up what repair was done?

One other thing, if you put power just to your motor,  y passing the board and everything els, does the motor spin?

Hello Tony and fellow RRers,

Thank you for the insights. When the board is by passed the motor does spin. It appears that the gear box assembly (conveyor) part number 610-2915-300 has an issue. Does anyone have suggestions where I can get said part or a diagram/picture of the gears INSIDE the gear box assembly? As always thanks for the feedback.

J

J...

I'm inclined to go with Phranzdan's comment from 5+ years ago.  I'd suspect the gearbox and the horrific grease issue that many of the repro accessories had to deal with.  My experience was with a couple Gantry Cranes of the same vintage.  I was able to get into the gearboxes, remove the gears, clean them of that gummy "lubrication" (⇒⇒) re-lube with Labelle 106 grease.  Now, 15+ years later, I can still operate those cranes with smooth 100% function ability.  What a difference!!

Not being familiar with the re-made 164 (I restored an original, instead), is it possible to check the function of the internal gear box by disconnecting it from the drive and trying to turn the input shaft manually??  This was a step I used with the Gantry Crane gear boxes and it dramatically pointed to the problem!...I couldn't even turn the  input shaft in its original condition!!

The Gantry Crane gearboxes were not permanently sealed.  The two box halves were held together with, I recall, 3 molded-in snap clips.  They were gently pried apart, one at a time.  Then the innards were easily accessible and removable for cleaning.  The mechanism was basically all plastic, so I was careful to use cleaning materials and fresh lube that were 'plastic compatible'.  That's especially important, because I don't believe the gears themselves were available...only the COMPLETE gearbox assembly (=$$!)  Cleaned and lubed, the assembly was easily reconstructed, the box halves snapped together, and the accessory put back into operation.

If you could talk some pictures of that gearbox it would help those of us not familiar with it to further advise.

Hope we can be of help...

KD

Thanks for the reply KD,

I am currently at work and will post a picture  of the assembly in the morning. Upon taking the assembly apart all of the plastic gears fell out.  I am not sure if I put them back in the correct order. Does anyone have a picture of the position for the plastic gears?

Any idea where I might be able to buy the assembly? I saw on the lionel site the part is no longer available.

Thanks

J

I can't imagine we couldn't help you get the gears back in the box in the correct order.  Pictures will help.

If you were close enough (mid-Michigan?) I'd be happy to assist getting it back together.

To find another gearbox assembly once Lionel has depleted stock will be a search.  You could post a WTB with the stock number.  Maybe a derelict for-parts-only opportunity at a flea market/show/meet?

The other option would be to wait for yet another release of this accessory.  If the gearbox in question is still part of the mechanicals, there's a good chance Lionel will again have a limited supply of parts available.

As with seemingly everything these days...patient perseverance.

KD

Hello guys, my apologies for the delay. Here are pictures of the assembly and inside. Are the gears correct?

J

Well, I guess the bigger question would be...do you have a smooth running gear train when the motor is activated? 

Not sure I'm seeing good engagement between the brass worm gear on the motor shaft and the first plastic gear.   Could be it's in the shadows of the photo.  But if there is good gear mesh/engagement throughout the four gears and motor worm, it appears OK.

Going back to the question of smooth running with the motor activated...  If you apply a light resistance (light finger contact) to the final large gear as the motor is activated, and the gear mesh stays engaged, then you're probably go to go.  This light finger pressure would simulate the load the mechanism will encounter in the accessory's operation.

IN WHICH CASE...it would be time to apply some light plastic-compatible grease to the gear teeth (e.g., LaBelle 106) and a drop of lightplastic-compatible oil to the bearing points of each gear shaft (assume molded into the to housing halves).  Then fasten (screws?) the two housing halves together, and you good to reassemble the 164.

Keep us posted. 

BTW...Did you encounter the horrible gummy original lubrication when you first took it apart?  The gears and housing innards look nice and clean in the photos.   Looks like you're on your way to getting this back into operation!!!

When I apply the power to the motor directly from the transformer via wire clips none of the gears turn including the worm gear. I presume the motor is crapped out and or the plastic gears just are not making contact. I put the unit back together. Indeed the unit is a peice of junk! Hopefully if lionel ever does another production run they up the quality. Anyway as always I appreciate the time in the responses. The question now is, what do I put in its place?

J

If it was mine I would gently bend the two tabs up at the end of the motor and pull the end plate off with the brushes. Then I would clean and polish the commutator and gently clean the ends of the carbon brushes and put back together again and see if it runs, you have nothing to lose as it isn’t running anyway.

That's a DC motor. Using an ac transformer won't work.

@Ukaflyer posted:

If it was mine I would gently bend the two tabs up at the end of the motor and pull the end plate off with the brushes. Then I would clean and polish the commutator and gently clean the ends of the carbon brushes and put back together again and see if it runs, you have nothing to lose as it isn’t running anyway.

Do not take the can motor apart.  As stated above, its a DC can motor.  It will not run directly from the transformer.  There is circuitry in the accessory which is converting the AC to DC so the motor will run.  Test the motor with a 9 volt battery or 1.5 volt battery.  Not sure the voltage requirements of the motor.  Then you can check if the gears are meshing correctly.  I have this accessory on my layout.  It has worked flawlessly for many, many years.  If the can motor is dead, then you just need a replacement can motor.

@hesseljr posted:

When I apply the power to the motor directly from the transformer via wire clips none of the gears turn including the worm gear. I presume the motor is crapped out and or the plastic gears just are not making contact. I put the unit back together. Indeed the unit is a peice of junk! Hopefully if lionel ever does another production run they up the quality. Anyway as always I appreciate the time in the responses. The question now is, what do I put in its place?

J

In an earlier post, from 4/16, you stated that the motor was working.  What changed since then since it was working and now it is not?