Prototypical Operations: Speed Control on or off?

I like the speed control on because it gives me more control at very slow speed. I think it is still prototypical.

romiller

Living in Texas with no basement and limited room on my 12/10 layout, I like to run them slow. It makes a small layout very enjoyable.

I agree, speed control on. One can manipulate the throttle to slow a train down going up a grade.

Another slowing factor is curves.  This added drag producer means constantly having to adjust the throttle on the average layout if a steady speed is desired.  It's nice to have cruise turned on when toggling between engines, that is, if you have the luxury of being able to run multiple trains.

Mindless circles are a cruise paradise.  I'm often just sitting back, involved in something else while trains do their own effortless moves.

  Prototypical running, to me, would include honing you skills at the throttle....being ever aware of the track ahead so that speeds could be adjusted as needed.  Now that the layout is up and running, I choose conventional control engines about 30% of the time.

   On a switching layout, prototypical operation really wouldn't require cruise for any logical reason I can think of.  This is where the utmost in concentration and throttle finesse is required.

Bruce

I NEVER shut off speed control.

 Switching.....Speed always on  here. Some engines are a little more snappy than othesr but they do take time to load up and get moving.  Alcos seem to like to jump ahead where as a GM  is a little smoother and take a little more time to load up...  Engines with electronic reversers  take longer to reverse  than those with an air reversers .

Anyway I love my MTH RS-3 for switching.....  trying to increase the speed as fast as possible  with the dcs  remote and rev up at the same time gives a pretty realistic scene. Hitting  the direction button for a fast stop and direction change... the only thing the engine needs is a smoke unit.. (and black smoke)

 I leave it on with a slight twist with Legacy. I usually run my mainline freights with the Railroad speed ICON's. Usually using just the first 2 with momentum set to Heavy.  What I do is when before approaching a long grade (I have 2)  I go from the second set speed to the first. The engine will slowly slow almost to a crawl as it gets to the crest of the hill. I'll play with the chuff intensity and the Train Brake to get the real labored effect of crawling up a hill. Once the train reaches the summit I push the second speed ICON and watch the train slowly accelerate. I have a hard time duplicating this effect turning the throttle. The Legacy remote does it better than I can.

 As far as switching moves. I leave speed control on. But prefer the Light setting as I feel the engines respond quicker to throttle commands.

Paul Kallus -

Cruise is not prototypical; (real trains slow down and speed up with conditions), but it looks prototypical, as most or many layouts are too small, too humpy and too curve-challenged to make normal speed changes look "natural" - they look odd - a surge-and-bog party.

Now, the above is true primarily because our equipment is generally geared so poorly (read: too fast), even on the high-end pieces, that we have resorted to an electronic overlay to compensate for what is essentially a mechanical specification failing.

I have upgraded 2 modern WBB (sheesh! of all brands!) die-cast 4-6-0's to ERR DC Commanders - no cruise - because the gearing is excellent. Williams, Weaver and 3rd Rail brass has pretty good gearing. But Lionel, MTH, non-brass Williams (especially their die-cast steamers - oy!) need help to run right.

I have a friend with a large 2-rail O layout. Straight DC system (so simple; so nice), primarily brass steam (some of it new, some old), no 25% grades - and it runs slowly, quietly (no sound...kinda nice; clickety-clack) and at essentially steady (the speed variations are more prototypical, too) scale speeds with 50-car trains. Smooth, responsive switchers. Why? Big Pittman motors and low gearing. You could pull a boat out of the water with his brass Mohawk.

Bear in mind that these locos will also attain proper prototypically "high" speeds, of course. They will run as fast as a real train ever goes; they just won't do 150 mph. Thankfully.

It's a shame that we "had" to invent all this expensive complication to do a job that a set of properly-sized metal $20.00 gears would have taken care of. Nearly permanent, too. 

My PW S gauge AF had worm gear drive, so it was not at all fast, but it also did not have magnetraction or traction tires, so there was a lot of wheel slippage. I didn't have any grades, just bad bench-work.

More about this topic from the OGR Forum, Click here.   Has 2688 Views.  /  9-10-12

D500 posted:

Paul Kallus -

Cruise is not prototypical; (real trains slow down and speed up with conditions),

Really?????

Apparently you have not experienced the "Cruise Control" that the Amtrak AEM7 units are equipped with, nor the "Speed Control" the virtually all modern EMD and GE units are equipped with for slow speed coal loading while "on the move". The EMD "Speed Control" could also be used to maintain maximum track speed on the BNSF "Transcon Route" between Chicago and LA (simply dial in the desired speed and sit back in the Engineer's seat).  

I think the "cat's meow" next generation of command controlled trains would entail a locomotive that has slow speed ability (via gearing or otherwise) and actually senses the load its pulling; and the operator has to realistically drive the engine - such as giving more throttle as necessary - easing off when needed, and the engine will yield labored or drift chuffing sounds, increase or decrease smoke, etc, as a function of throttle power changes. As it is now, these features are just simulated by pressing various buttons on Cab II or DCS handheld - they're really neat and I appreciate them, but the they leave something to be desired.

I suppose most of us 3-railers just don't have the room to implement a realistic operating pike - one that involves ruling grades and assignments to haul various tonnages ~ it could very well take 1/2 acre to accomplish mainline running and switching operations in 3-rail, with the exception being a layout condensed in long mainlines via concentric loops.

Anyone know if speed control can be turned off in PS2.0  and PS3.0 engines?

Without cruise control you quickly find out how up and down your layout really is.

Since changing over to battery power (without cruise) in my steam engines, I've had to learn how to "drive" the train instead of letting it just run around the layout.  Curves, even 072, slow the engines down.  Any differences in grade are noticeable as well.  Never noticed it when using DCS/TMCC.

Due to a Wye on my layout I can run north or south.  The southbound direction has a gradual uphill grade that has little effect on the train, but going in the opposite direction (north), there's an uphill grade that noticeably slows down the train if I'm not on top of it and increase the throttle.

This northbound uphill grade is downhill going south and speeds the train up a tad, but not as much as it seems to slow it down when going north.

I only notice it when running the mainline, when I just let the train run loops.  When I'm switching on the inner tracks it's not as noticeable.

I'm fine with it, it's just another part of my model trains behaving like the real thing, just like watching the slack run out of the train when using Kadees.  I ran a 12-car train the other day and it seemed like there was 3" of slack before the caboose started to move.

The only "cruise control" I have is the ability to turn off the transmitter to conserve the 9v battery, the engine keeps running at its current speed (not constant speed).

"Prototypical operations" on my layout primarily involve switching type moves - making up trains in a yard, setting out or picking up cars at industries, etc.  This type of operation is done at relatively low speeds and usually on level or nearly level track.  "Cruise control" on or off  has no effect at these speeds.  The ability to simulate momentum, which our modern electronics do much better than a flywheel alone, is much more important when operating prototypically and creates challenges that significantly increase the fun.  Additionally, the ability to move smoothly at very low speeds is much more important than simulating loads on hills and curves.  Here, too, the electronics are very helpful, especially if the engine isn't ideally geared.  My personal favorite locos for prototypical operation are older Williams or Weaver brass steamers that I have converted to Proto2 (or3).  These are well geared for slow speed and the electronics do a great job of simulating momentum.

"Without cruise control you quickly find out how up and down your layout really is."

I remember those days...un-noticed uneven basement floors gave rise to unintentional grades, LOL, only noticeable when the trains suddenly sped up or slowed down.

"The ability to simulate momentum, which our modern electronics do much better than a flywheel alone, is much more important when operating prototypically and creates challenges that significantly increase the fun."

Do you accomplish this by setting momentum on Cab II, or other, such that you have to adjust throttle with more precision?

Any advice to increase the challenges with these modern trains is appreciated.

D500 posted:

Paul Kallus -

Cruise is not prototypical; (real trains slow down and speed up with conditions), but it looks prototypical, as most or many layouts are too small, too humpy and too curve-challenged to make normal speed changes look "natural" - they look odd - a surge-and-bog party.

Now, the above is true primarily because our equipment is generally geared so poorly (read: too fast), even on the high-end pieces, that we have resorted to an electronic overlay to compensate for what is essentially a mechanical specification failing.

I have upgraded 2 modern WBB (sheesh! of all brands!) die-cast 4-6-0's to ERR DC Commanders - no cruise - because the gearing is excellent. Williams, Weaver and 3rd Rail brass has pretty good gearing. But Lionel, MTH, non-brass Williams (especially their die-cast steamers - oy!) need help to run right.

I have a friend with a large 2-rail O layout. Straight DC system (so simple; so nice), primarily brass steam (some of it new, some old), no 25% grades - and it runs slowly, quietly (no sound...kinda nice; clickety-clack) and at essentially steady (the speed variations are more prototypical, too) scale speeds with 50-car trains. Smooth, responsive switchers. Why? Big Pittman motors and low gearing. You could pull a boat out of the water with his brass Mohawk.

Bear in mind that these locos will also attain proper prototypically "high" speeds, of course. They will run as fast as a real train ever goes; they just won't do 150 mph. Thankfully.

It's a shame that we "had" to invent all this expensive complication to do a job that a set of properly-sized metal $20.00 gears would have taken care of. Nearly permanent, too. 

You said it. Iron powder wheels, pick up rollers, talgo trucks and crappy mechanical components all make three rail O gauge equipment have the friction that it does.  Another reason I am switching to N scale later in life. 

Do you accomplish this by setting momentum on Cab II, or other, such that you have to adjust throttle with more precision?

Both DCS & TMCC/Legacy allow adjustable levels of momentum simulation, set using the handheld.  For example, approaching a car with an engine at 10 smph the challenge is to press reverse or stop and have the engine coast and just kiss and couple to the stationary car.  This works much better with Kadee couplers or Lionel style couplers treated to Bob Bartizek's modification.  One can always reduce speed gradually using the throttle, but that's not as much fun.

Speed control ON; Momentum to HIGH.

Hot Water posted:

D500 posted:

Paul Kallus -

Cruise is not prototypical; (real trains slow down and speed up with conditions),

Really?????

Apparently you have not experienced the "Cruise Control" that the Amtrak AEM7 units are equipped with, nor the "Speed Control" the virtually all modern EMD and GE units are equipped with for slow speed coal loading while "on the move". The EMD "Speed Control" could also be used to maintain maximum track speed on the BNSF "Transcon Route" between Chicago and LA (simply dial in the desired speed and sit back in the Engineer's seat).  

It is my understanding that the pacesetter controls are always used in "on the move" mineral loading because human operators cannot reliably maintain the speed of the train within the required limits.  Something like 0.4-0.45 MPH?

Hot Water posted:

I NEVER shut off speed control.

I only have two engines without speed control -- Atlas Trainman RSD4's -- and it's a lot of work to run them.  They really slow down on ascending grades and want to run away where the grade descends.  I enjoy revving and reducing the diesel engine sounds on all my diesels, but constantly adjusting the throttle requires full time attention.  I plan on giving the RSD4's the ERR treatment, including improved sounds.

rdunniii posted:

Hot Water posted:

D500 posted:

Paul Kallus -

Cruise is not prototypical; (real trains slow down and speed up with conditions),

Really?????

Apparently you have not experienced the "Cruise Control" that the Amtrak AEM7 units are equipped with, nor the "Speed Control" the virtually all modern EMD and GE units are equipped with for slow speed coal loading while "on the move". The EMD "Speed Control" could also be used to maintain maximum track speed on the BNSF "Transcon Route" between Chicago and LA (simply dial in the desired speed and sit back in the Engineer's seat).  

It is my understanding that the pacesetter controls are always used in "on the move" mineral loading because human operators cannot reliably maintain the speed of the train within the required limits.  Something like 0.4-0.45 MPH?

Well, the term is no longer "pacesetter" what with the development of complete computer controlled units with computer screens for the Engineer. That said, the "human" could no way maintain a coal loading speed of fro, .25 MPH to as high as .75 MPH. Thus the built-in speed control does exactly whatever the Engineer selects on his computer screen. Also, it didn't take the Engineers on the Santa Fe main line to discover that they could "select" speed control and dial-in 70 MPH!

Creep, coast, and pull; it's not that hard.  Personally, I'll take a big flywheel and back-drivable gears over electronic momentum any day.  

D500 and Pat hit the nail on the head with their posts.  It's all about the gear ratio.  Only a few conventional locos were really good, the rest were hopelessly under-geared.  Changing the gear ratio would have been very simple (for the manufacturers, not for you and me .)  But adding a whiz-bang electronics package instead allowed them to justify a $200 price increase.  Once the software development costs were amortized, that's pure profit!

Also it's easier to build a mechanism with a slow-turning motor.  Fewer complaints about noise, vibration, etc. (all of which are solvable for a few dollars more.) And the Toy Train guys don't whine that "it runs too slow."  There's a direct trade-off between top speed and slow speed performance.  Other comments on this thread reflect my sentiment that a top speed of 45-65 mph is plenty fast for most home layouts.  Don't take my word for it.  Put your eye down at track level, or use a small camera on a flatcar and you'll see how fast that really is.  If your layout has long tangents and a main line long enough for express speeds, then congratulations, you're pretty rich!  You can probably afford to have a custom builder regear a couple of your locos for 100 MPH.  The rest of us are better off with 45 or 50 mph out of the box.  Besides, there are already tons of fast locos to choose from the last 70 years of production!

The manufacturers could, and should give us a choice:  Rubber tires or not.  Easily replaceable wheels and axles.  Interchangeable pulleys or sprockets and worms to alter the gear ratio (or just make it easy to replace the whole gearbox.)  I'm not switching to a smaller scale at this point in my life.  But I keep hoping that someday the O-Gauge market will see this issue for what it is and demand something better.  If folks want whistle smoke, swinging bell, disappearing coal loads, etc., make those features optional or offer them as upgrade kits.  But start with a solid foundation: high quality slow-speed gearing.

While we're on the subject of features affecting train handling... I've often thought about a functional, remote-controlled train brake to create authentic slack action.  Perhaps an electromagnetically-actuated friction brake built into a special caboose or freight car, to create drag on the wheels at the tail end of the train.  Ditching the rubber tires to allow a little wheelspin at start-up would go hand-in-hand with this accessory, and add another touch of operating realism.  Just thinking aloud here.  Good topic Paul!