PRR Panhandle 2.0 Track Plan

George,

  That sounds like a great design. Three times bigger sounds like a lot of work for you, but I'm sure it will be amazing. I like the higher height of your layout. My last layout was approximately that tall. Glad that switching and your B6 are factored in to this new design.

  I thought you had said you might be moving at some point but maybe I have that wrong.

  Good luck and keep posting! 

Tom 

MNCW posted:

George,

  That sounds like a great design. Three times bigger sounds like a lot of work for you, but I'm sure it will be amazing. I like the higher height of your layout. My last layout was approximately that tall. Glad that switching and your B6 are factored in to this new design.

  I thought you had said you might be moving at some point but maybe I have that wrong.

  Good luck and keep posting! 

Tom 

Tom,

It does sound like a lot of work, but given the mistakes I made in the current Panhandle, I've probably completely rebuilt that layout at least once in the past 10 years.  I'm looking forward to doing this one correctly (or mostly correctly) the first time.  Given what I've learned, I don't expect the benchwork to take all that long.  I won't be feeling my way along, at least I hope not.

Switching was always meant to be part of the operation, but the current layout size limited that significantly.  In this version, the mills are organized bottom to top so that the steel making process goes from basic creation (pig iron in the blast furnace) to finished product (tin-plated coils).  That will result in a lot of intra-mill switching of torpedo (hot metal) cars, ingot cars, slag cars, coal hoppers, iron ore jennies, coil gondolas, and box cars.

George

George,

Since you have elevation changes in you track plan why not put your staging tracks below the top run of tracks? The are multiple advantages to doing this:

1. Tracks will be straight and longer and can be closer spaced (3.5" possible with Ross switches);

2. No 90° turns needed to enter and leave reducing chance of derailments that are out of reach; and

3. Gain 7 more fee of table space to add industries and other switching opportunities.

Jan

PS. Would you post your RR-track file?

Jan posted:

George,

Since you have elevation changes in you track plan why not put your staging tracks below the top run of tracks? The are multiple advantages to doing this:

1. Tracks will be straight and longer and can be closer spaced (3.5" possible with Ross switches);

2. No 90° turns needed to enter and leave reducing chance of derailments that are out of reach; and

3. Gain 7 more fee of table space to add industries and other switching opportunities.

Jan

PS. Would you post your RR-track file?

Hi Jan,

Thanks for weighing in on the plan.  All of what you say is true. 

However, the current Panhandle has a hidden staging yard reachable via a long spur through the steel mills.  Honestly?  It's a major PITA.     I realize I might pick up more space but I really don't know what I would do with it given the design of 2.0.  More track covered by bigger steel mill buildings doesn't contribute much in my mind.  Right now the 4 steel mill buildings do a good job creating the illusion we are making steel.  And there's a basement window in the staging area that is both necessary and may be used to vent the train room when smoke accumulates.

I wouldn't mind finding a way to squeeze more track into the current staging yard (love to see that improved), but I don't want to back trains in / out of staging if possible.  I want them to go in and come out using the tracks I've indicated behind the backdrop.  And the backdrop is an important part of the steel mill and the town.

The plan is attached.

Please take your shot at this.  And again, thanks!

George

All:

I've done some thinking about the right side of the layout - specifically the Staging Area and the Weirton Steel yard - with regard to operating the railroad with a group of people.  The redesign is also more focused on engine storage than the previous staging area.  I’ve decided that I will be looking to add 2 more large locomotives in the future – a Decapod and possibly a J1 (2-10-4 Texas type).

I particularly want comments from those of you who operate layouts.

Anyway, please remember these as you consider the question:

1. All travel is in the counter-clockwise direction.
2. Mainline is shown in BLUE.
3. Run-around track is shown in RED.

Here's what has changed from the diagram at the top of the thread:

1. At the bottom of the diagram on the Mainline to the right of where it says “126” is an O31 switch. The track diverging from the switch (and eventually joining the mainline at the top of the diagram) is where outbound trains from Weirton Steel will be assembled. I changed the geometry a bit and made the track a bit longer. Yes, to put cars into that track will require backing out onto the main for a minute or two. For the sake of identification – I am calling that a run-around track.
2. The Staging Area now has:

• Two large access areas (red rectangles) that let me reach anywhere in the area.
• A large locomotive storage area – the double-crossover (4 storage tracks) + the 2 longer engine pocket tracks on the extreme right end of the layout (top & bottom). I think these will all suit engines requiring O72 curves.
• Storage for at least 6 locomotives.

Regarding Switching Operations in the Weirton Steel Yard (this is my thinking, comments welcomed):

• All INBOUND trains will diverge from the Mainline at “126” on the track plan. They will do this by continuing to the right (the Mainline curves upwards) so as not to foul the mainline.
• The locomotive will de-couple from the train, continue further right into the staging area, and await further assignment.
• A shifter (switcher) positioned on the run-around loop will back out, couple to the train, back the train out onto the main, and then push cuts of cars (ore jennies or coal hoppers to blast furnace; gondolas or boxcars to Strip Steel) to the correct mill. Once the cars are all spotted on their proper spurs, the shifter may take the cabin car to a track in the Staging Area or to the spur just to the left of the divider (I’m thinking of making that the Caboose Track). Alternatively, the shifter may position the cabin car on its track first.

• All OUTBOUND trains are assembled by reversing the INBOUND process.
• First the shifter retrieves a cabin car (yes, I know this is not prototypical).  Alternatively it could position the cabin car on the run-around track.
• The shifter then grabs cuts of cars from the proper mill (full gondolas or boxcars from the Strip Steel; empty coal hoppers or ore jennies from the blast furnace). This takes place on the track at the bottom of the layout or on the run-around track depending on the train length.
• The shifter attaches the cabin car to the end of the train.
• Finally, there are 2 scenarios for attaching the road locomotive:
  • It pulls around the loop at the rightmost edge of the layout, enters the mainline at the top, backs down the run-around track, and couples to the train.
  • It backs out of the Staging Area and attaches to the train on the long track to right of “126” and then pulls all the way around the rightmost edge of the layout, joining the mainline again just left of the Strip Steel building.

Thanks for looking,

George

George,

Since you and I were discussing layouts off-line, I went back to take another look at your plans.  I dismissed commenting on you last post a week ago because, though I have run model trains since I was a boy in the late '60s, I have only run on small layouts, never operated on an industrial designed layout.  To see if we can get some conversation going after this has set here a week, I do want to commend you on how you fit in the tracks for 6 engines in your staging area!  I have seen a lot of plans and layouts, but never saw engine storage like this.  It looks to me like that would work.  As to the operations of bringing trains in, breaking them up, moving cars around, assembling trains again, and moving them out onto the mainline, I will leave the comments to others more familiar to steel mills and heavy industrial switching in general.  I only want to say that what you propose makes sense to me.  Whether there are better ways, I'll leave that up to others.

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words regarding engine storage.  I don't anticipate adding many locomotives to the roster, so this should be sufficient.  A roundhouse would take up too much real estate and add too much complexity.  This area is simply about getting engines off the layout and out of the way of train assembly / disassembly.

Operations is a new world for me and I hope to learn from those who operate their layouts.

One source of ideas for me is the NMRA's Steel Mill Modelers SIG (Special Interest Group).  The most current issue (and its predecessor) has list of railroad moves for some mills.  I'm taking a good look at that to see if the plan should be modified to accommodate it.  While most of the equipment there is HO scale, the movements and track arrangements transcend scale.

Anyone who models steel mills should strongly consider this SIG.

George

Updated 1/24/2017:

Deconstruction has begun.  The western power distribution panel is history.

George

Updated 2/6/2017:

So while posting and activity on the PRR Panhandle thread has subsided for the near future, I have been busy with the track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0. Several things have happened to influence my thinking:

• The Kalmbach publication Model Railroad Planning 2017 became available recently and I had a chance to study Neal Schorr's Middle Division layout (as well as visit it). In the rural areas (particularly the WV approach to the bridge), I want to model the mainline more prototypically. That will mean planning for line poles, culverts, an underpass, and the adherence to a slightly elevated (on a fill) mainline with a 2:3 (rise to run) slope.
• My bridge supplier came back with preliminary drawings on the approach spans. The possible lengths of these spans will influence the track placement.

Based on the above, I am going to create a side view drawing of the entire bridge span to determine what looks right (proportionally). I want to see what the overall length turns out to be. A double-check of actual measurements would seem to be in order.

Right now, it's looking as if I will straighten out the entire mainline run (with the bridge) on the back wall and position it on a slight 5-10 degree angle from the wall (not parallel). The mainline will be closer to the back wall on the right (Weirton side) and farther away on the left (Steubenville side).

If time permits, I will create and post all the changed drawings, but this tells you my thinking.

George

George,

This is a good time to continue planning for the new layout!  I missed ordering Model Railroad Planning 2017, and didn't realize Neal Shchorr's layout was in it.  I will have to get a copy.  Your planning for the bridge approaches sounds smart to get the correct look!  Looking forward to updates!

George,

Well as an update to my post at break time, I had to get a few things at the Giant Eagle at lunch time.  I picked up a copy of Model Railroad Planning 2017 from their magazine rack.  Thank you for the tip!  I have met Neal several times, but have not hat the privilege of visiting his layout.  

Incidentally, it was on that same magazine rack that I first discovered OGR about 5 years ago.  That was one of the best finds of all time! 

You could add another set of moves.    Coal does go directly to the blast fce, it goes to the coke ovens to be made into coke.     Then the coke goes to the blast fce.    So you could add another string of hoppers to your system.    The switcher could drop the loaded coal hoppers at the coke ovens, pick up the loaded coke cars and take them to the blast fce and then take the empties from the blast fce out.

Typically the cars moving between the blast fce and the coke ovens were steel company cars, but you could stretch and use general service cars.

prrjim posted:

You could add another set of moves.    Coal does go directly to the blast fce, it goes to the coke ovens to be made into coke.     Then the coke goes to the blast fce.    So you could add another string of hoppers to your system.    The switcher could drop the loaded coal hoppers at the coke ovens, pick up the loaded coke cars and take them to the blast fce and then take the empties from the blast fce out.

Typically the cars moving between the blast fce and the coke ovens were steel company cars, but you could stretch and use general service cars.

You are correct.  I will give that some thought.

Thanks!

George

Updated 3/16/2017:

I have begun researching the following topics:

• Benchwork - I have identified a construction technique for tables that I like.  And I have a method for fills that looks promising as well.
• Backdrops: I am weighing options here. A new company that can create a custom, location-specific backdrop has my interest. The backdrop would be a high resolution panoramic view of the Ohio River valley north of the bridge. The other approach is to go back to an artistic, painted backdrop.
• I've begun re-watching some modeling technique videos I acquired over the past 10 years. It's interesting how time changes your perspective and makes you focus on different things. 
  
  
  

I have to say that the panoramic photo option definitely has my attention. Talking with the vendor spurred some additional refinements to the track plan relative to the location and size of the river. I've made the river a bit wider to better represent the prototype. That also means one of the "pocket piers" (circled in the 2nd photo below) will be in its correct location - in the river.  Please ignore the incomplete track to the east (right) of the bridge; I'm still wrestling with RR-Track there.

The photo below (from the circled "pocket pier" to the stone arch) shows the area that I enhanced.

I am coming around to the idea that if this is to be the final layout, it should be as good as I can make it. That's not to say that cost is unimportant, but getting value out of my efforts and expenditures becomes more important. I recognize that the backdrop is vital to the visual impact of the layout and that the bridge is the centerpiece of the layout.

Lots of decisions to be made, for sure.

George

George,

I'm glad to read of your thinking since we last talked.  The panoramic photo backdrop would be great for this specific place you are modeling!  Also, with this plan, the bridge will be even better!  I'll be looking forward to your updates!!

Mark Boyce posted:

George,

I'm glad to read of your thinking since we last talked.  The panoramic photo backdrop would be great for this specific place you are modeling!  Also, with this plan, the bridge will be even better!  I'll be looking forward to your updates!!

Thanks Mark! 

It's becoming clear to me that priority must be given to planning and thought rather than focusing on getting trains running.

That said, a lot will depend on the quality and scale of the photographic backdrop.

George