PRR T-1 Clanking Noise in This Video?

Thats slop in the rods.  I believe Hotwater has stated  that" its better to hear the rods than smell them" ,i.e. if the bearings are too tight causing them to bind and overheat.

Sounds like ordinary rod clank, like from any other steamer.

Several, if not most, portions of that video are overdubbed.  There's one sound segment I recognized in a least a couple other places in the video.  That being the case, it would be hard to say just what the clank was.  Rail joints?  Loose rods?  Only the audiographer knows for sure.

@Byrdie posted:

Several, if not most, portions of that video are overdubbed.  There's one sound segment I recognized in a least a couple other places in the video.  That being the case, it would be hard to say just what the clank was.  Rail joints?  Loose rods?  Only the audiographer knows for sure.

Its rod noise, very common. Go to the :59 mark . Its very audible at 2:20:

( unless , of course its Rich Melvins tool belt or something LOL!   not my video)

For what it's worth, steam locomotives equipped with roller bearing rods do NOT "clank"! Thus, the sounds are NOT correct for many scenes in that video, as the PRR T1 class locomotives all were equipped with roller bearing rods, as well as roller bearings on all axles. In other words, PRR T1 locomotives did NOT "clank". For example, listen to recordings of N&W J Class #611.

EDIT  The locomotive model is "T1", i.e. no hyphen.

The T1 used cam type valves.  Could the sound be from them?

Poppet valves didn't make any noise AFAIK.  The sound on the video is the clank of solid bearing rods, I don't believe there's any doubt about it.  Likely soundtracks from UP 3985 or N&W 1218 were used to get the syncopated sound of the T1's two engine sets  when they were out of phase.  Both 3985 and 1218 had solid bearing rods, and sounded exactly like the soundtrack of the T1's above.  So... that's my guess

Almost ALL historic 8mm movie footage you see has dubbed audio.  The producer adds the chuffs, the whistles, the bells, even the birds and the automobiles in the background.

This is why:

You'll see a steamer with the bells swinging wildly, but no ringing.  Conversely, you'll hear a bell clanging, but no movement, and no pneumatic driver.

You'll see steam coming from the whistle, but no sound.

You'll see the trees bending over wildly, but hear no wind.

The engine you hear is almost certainly not the type, class, or even road you're seeing.  It's the sound clip the producer had that came the closest to the number of chuffs per revolution of the wheels.

And THAT'S why you'll hear clanking rods on a roller-bearings equipped T1!

Jon

For me, when listening/watching  to these type of vids, if it’s an articulated lok and you only hear one stroke noise/chuff, it’s a dead give away that the audio is dubbed. Most articulateds will eventually have a double chuff or out of sync chuffs.

Steve

Steve - I only have experience with N&W Class A recordings and it's possible for the two engine sets to stay "in-step" (actually in-quarter would be more accurate, but I've never seen the term used)  for long periods of time.  Several of Winston Link's recordings illustrate this phenomenon.  Example - WB up Blue Ridge 1238 stays in sync for all but one minute of an 11-minute recording: nine minutes in sync working flat-out, one minute out of sync near the summit, final minute in sync over-the-top.   But your last sentence is correct, they will probably drift out of sync sooner or later.

After having memories of drifting helpers passing through Piedmont, WVa, with their rods clanking, years later I was amazed at watching 614 drifting though with nary a sound from her roller bearing rods.

Ed

@RideTheRails posted:

For me, when listening/watching  to these type of vids, if it’s an articulated lok and you only hear one stroke noise/chuff, it’s a dead give away that the audio is dubbed.

Well, yes and no. Many simple articulated locomotives will get into a "rhythm" during acceleration and when reaching "causing speed", where only 4 exhausts are heard. When locomotives like N&W 1218 and/or UP 3985 had generally all new tires on each engine, once they tended to get "in sync" they could stay that way for quite some time.

Most articulateds will eventually have a double chuff or out of sync chuffs.

Well, you might be surprised, especially when both engines of the articulated have the same diameter tires. Don't know how much actual experience you have with simple articulated locomotives, but simply watching videos could be pretty mis-leading. Having spent about 17 years as a contract Fireman for the UP steam crew, with lots and LOTS miles on 3985, I can tell you that watching videos doesn't tell the whole story when simply cruising along on the main line, with a nice train behind.

Steve

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

The T1 used cam type valves.  Could the sound be from them?

As already mentioned. It's rod noise. Just not from that T1, and not recorded during that video.

In a compound Mallet the steam is first used in the rear high-pressure cylinders and then used again in the large low-pressure cylinders, and then exhausted up the stack. You would only hear four 'chuffs' for each revolution of the wheels. On a 'simple' articulated, all four cylinders get high-pressure steam directly, so you could hear eight chuffs per revolution - four from the rear drivers, four from the front.

Some (many?) compound engines were able to be used as simple engines when starting, so you could hear the off-beat "chuff-chuff.....chuff-chuff.....chuff-chuff" when starting, switching to four chuffs per revolution as the engine got up to speed.

@wjstix posted:

In a compound Mallet the steam is first used in the rear high-pressure cylinders and then used again in the large low-pressure cylinders, and then exhausted up the stack. You would only hear four 'chuffs' for each revolution of the wheels. On a 'simple' articulated, all four cylinders get high-pressure steam directly, so you could hear eight chuffs per revolution - four from the rear drivers, four from the front.

Until the two engines get into "sync", then you only hear 4 exhausts. Please read my post, above.

Some (many?) compound engines were able to be used as simple engines when starting, so you could hear the off-beat "chuff-chuff.....chuff-chuff.....chuff-chuff" when starting, switching to four chuffs per revolution as the engine got up to speed.

The sound that was asked about here has nothing to do with  simple or compound. It’s RODS CLANKING, pure and simple. And it’s dubbed in sound from some other engine.

Would there be less - or no - rod clank with roller bearing rods, as there is less rotating friction, less wear, and less/no looseness to "clank"?

With roller bearing rods, there is no noise. Roller bearings don’t clank. Hot Water made this point in post #6.

There is no “slop” in roller bearings, but there must be a little bit of clearance in solid bearings. That’s how they get lubed.

Rod clank is developed by worn rod brass. A freshly shopped engine with new rod brass will have little to no clank. As the brasses wear in and then wear out, the clank will become more audible. You can practically date the audio recordings based on the amount of clank present since the presence of very loud rod clank is usually an indicator of defered maintenance. The Rio Grande narrow gauge in the mid 60s had very loud rod clank.

Roller bearings do not wear out so you will never get a clank from them. If you ever did, that would mean there is a very big problem.

Interesting that in the vast majority of the clips there is a steady plume(s) of steam coming from just ahead of the cab often when no smoke is visible from the stack. Seems that would be a neat feature to have on our modes and less complicated to add than 'whistle steam'.

@c.sam posted:

Interesting that in the vast majority of the clips there is a steady plume(s) of steam coming from just ahead of the cab often when no smoke is visible from the stack. Seems that would be a neat feature to have on our modes and less complicated to add than 'whistle steam'.

I believe thats the popoff valve. Lionel has already been adding this feature with the VL Niagara. I believe there are other recent offerings that have it as well.

@RickO posted:

I believe thats the popoff valve. Lionel has already been adding this feature with the VL Niagara. I believe there are other recent offerings that have it as well.

That would be the Safety Valve, and really shouldn't be blowing for that long. The Engineer obviously reduced the throttle, and the Fireman still had a pretty hot fire, thus the Safety Valve is lifted. Generally simply putting on the injector would reduce boiler pressure and seat the Safety Valve.

Just my opinion but, have the Safety Valve/Valves constantly blowing "smoke" on a model would certainly NOT be prototypical.

Might it also be the dynamo? I’m not sure where Pennsy put the dynamo on the T1 but its about in the right spot, just ahead of the cab. Most locomotive builders put the dynamo there.
Safety valves are usually closer to mid boiler.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Might it also be the dynamo?

No! The dynamo does NOT shoot steam that high.

I’m not sure where Pennsy put the dynamo on the T1 but its about in the right spot, just ahead of the cab.

Look closely at some of the winter runbys, and you will see the wispy exhaust of the dynamo.

Most locomotive builders put the dynamo there.
Safety valves are usually closer to mid boiler.

@Hot Water posted:

I watched the video last night so didn’t really recall the specific scenes that Sam was refering to. I was going off of foggy memory and that he stated that the steam was ahead of the cab.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

I watched the video last night so didn’t really recall the specific scenes that Sam was refering to. I was going off of foggy memory and that he stated that the steam was ahead of the cab.

Yes, the "steam" exhausting from the safety, is "ahead of the cab" but also ahead of the turret area. Another noteworthy item from that video, is all the white mineral deposits running down the sides from the Wilson Blowdown Separator exhaust (shades of Union Pacific big steam models).

EDIT:  Obviously this has developed into serious thread drift.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Rod clank is developed by worn rod brass. A freshly shopped engine with new rod brass will have little to no clank. As the brasses wear in and then wear out, the clank will become more audible. You can practically date the audio recordings based on the amount of clank present since the presence of very loud rod clank is usually an indicator of defered maintenance. The Rio Grande narrow gauge in the mid 60s had very loud rod clank.

Roller bearings do not wear out so you will never get a clank from them. If you ever did, that would mean there is a very big problem.

4014 was freshly shopped and her's clank.  as stated above, it's required for lube and to prevent binding.  We did even on 1/3 and 1/4 scale locomotive outlines.

@Hot Water posted:

Because of how our minds work, two repetitions of the same sound close enough together are 'heard' as one sound, so as a compound engine speeds up, we start to hear the chuffs as being "in synch" when really they are drifting in and out of synch.

@wjstix posted:

Because of how our minds work, two repetitions of the same sound close enough together are 'heard' as one sound, so as a compound engine speeds up, we start to hear the chuffs as being "in synch" when really they are drifting in and out of synch.

Nope! You have it backwards, i.e. a compound articulated does NOT drift "in and out of sync". The simple articulated does, however.