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Nice! My old RR club, the WNYRHS, is providing a long haul tender for the project in trade for rebuilding work on the short tender of the PRR I1sa owned by the WNYRHS....
Tom
Why are they purchasing parts piecemeal? Wouldn't it be better to complete the project in stages (i.e., construct the frame, cast the drivers, then build the boiler?)
Asking this as a legitimate question since I don't follow the project closely.
Do they have a reasonably close estimate to how long and how much money it will cost to do the project?
Are there any "show stoppers" in their plans that they mention?
Just curious.
645 posted:They (the T1 Trust) are doing this in stages if you pay attention.
But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
smd4 posted:645 posted:They (the T1 Trust) are doing this in stages if you pay attention.
But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
It appears they are tackling items that can be made fairly easily and items that, when placed together, really look like they are making progress to your big pockets donors. Two courses of a boiler look like more progress than several more identical drivers. At a certain point, it really starts looking like a steam engine, even though some of the really big ticket items don't exist yet.
In a project like this, perception is reality. You have to convince the people with the money that this will happen. Being able to take those people to a staging area and showing them large pieces goes a long way towards alleviating that doubt and convincing them that if they part with their money, they will see this project completed in their lifetime.
There are three stages of a project like this...
1) This is a wild dream with no chance of it ever happening
2) These guys are serious, and they are really going to try
3) They are actually going to make it!
The T1 Trust has already gotten past the first hurdle, which is the hardest part. If they are half as competent as they seem so far, stage 2 should see larger amounts of money rolling in and more progress being made. Perception = reality.
Kevin
Rule292 posted:Asking this as a legitimate question since I don't follow the project closely.
Do they have a reasonably close estimate to how long and how much money it will cost to do the project?
Are there any "show stoppers" in their plans that they mention?
Just curious.
Short answer at the moment....about $10M and 2030. I suspect the frame will be the most challenging part, other than a possible lack of money. You don't start something like this, get this far along, and waste this much time and money without having a well thought out plan to actually making it happen. If they can get the fundraising, it will happen. It's just a question of when.
I;ll take that that someone at least had the good sense to ask a more knowledgeable person before proceeding.
Wouldn't it be nice if they could pause and help the K4 or G5 projects?
smd4 posted:But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
What are you trying to say?......One drive wheel and a cab aren't enough to call a steam locomotive??
bob2 posted:Wouldn't it be nice if they could pause and help the K4 or G5 projects?
If neither of those two "organizations" are able to raise their own funds for their own locomotive project, why would the folks involved with the T1 project even desire to involve themselves with either of them?
RickO posted:smd4 posted:But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
What are you trying to say?......One drive wheel and a cab aren't enough to call a steam locomotive??
Don't forget, they've also secured the basis for the tender.
Rusty
Rusty True posted:Don't forget, they've also secured the basis for the tender.
Rusty
Your right! The tender is closest to being complete and they haven't even touched it yet...go figure.
IMO. All of the money donated towards this "what if" project might be put to better use by the many volunteer historical steam organizations that already have an actual complete operating piece of railroad history.
I guess if I make it to 67, I'll see if I get to eat crow.
RickO posted:smd4 posted:But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
What are you trying to say?......One drive wheel and a cab aren't enough to call a steam locomotive??
I don't know. Ordering random boiler courses just seems...weird to me. I would think you'd wait until you could just have a boilermaker build you a complete boiler.
smd4 posted:RickO posted:smd4 posted:But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
What are you trying to say?......One drive wheel and a cab aren't enough to call a steam locomotive??
I don't know. Ordering random boiler courses just seems...weird to me. I would think you'd wait until you could just have a boilermaker build you a complete boiler.
OK, here's a thought: maybe they are "testing" the various different supply industries for the various & many different component areas of such a large project. First, they made patterns for a cast steel drive wheel center (thus 'testing' that particular foundry supplier). Then the designed and fabricated a cab (thus 'testing' that sheet metal fabricator). Now, they have ordered boiler courses, which will "test" the manufacturer of large, rolled boiler plate and welding technology.
Baby steps, if you will.
Well I Don't care what the Naysayers/ Non doners/ and cheapskates say but for me the show of Progress towards completion every three months is enough for me to open up my wallet. Too Bad they were NOT at the "Big E" with a stand for Donations!
Of all the steam engines they could have made or rebuilt they picked the T1.
I wish them luck but if they succeed it will be a miracle.
Dave
Kelly Anderson posted:It is a little strange. In our experience as a code shop when building a new boiler, our third party inspector won't allow us to acquire materials until the design is completed and approved and a job number is assigned. If that is the case, and Continental or whoever is the boiler maker, do they plan on keeping the job open and pecking away at it a little at a time for the next ten or twenty years? That ties up a lot of space in their shop, and asks for a lot of inefficiency as the job starts and stops, materials are acquired and then possibly lost or damaged before they are assembled, people working on the job come and go, and as possible changes come to the ASME code. Been there, done that, and it sucks. Far better to fully fund and ram the boiler through to completion as one continuous job.
You've made a good example of why consultants command a decent salary for their advice. Experience and expertise.
Good advice is priceless. Working without it can lead to costly mistakes.
I wish the T1 Trust all the luck in the world. Let the light of 1361 shine brightly on all.
Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:RickO posted:smd4 posted:But there isn't any one stage that's been complete yet. For me, I'd like to see a stage completed before moving on to the next. Say, casting ALL drivers. Or completely fabricating the frame.
What are you trying to say?......One drive wheel and a cab aren't enough to call a steam locomotive??
I don't know. Ordering random boiler courses just seems...weird to me. I would think you'd wait until you could just have a boilermaker build you a complete boiler.
OK, here's a thought: maybe they are "testing" the various different supply industries for the various & many different component areas of such a large project. First, they made patterns for a cast steel drive wheel center (thus 'testing' that particular foundry supplier). Then the designed and fabricated a cab (thus 'testing' that sheet metal fabricator). Now, they have ordered boiler courses, which will "test" the manufacturer of large, rolled boiler plate and welding technology.
Baby steps, if you will.
Seems like it would be awfully expensive testing...
Rusty
If you are going to dream.....dream BIG....and the T-1 Trust is.
AMCDave posted:If you are going to dream.....dream BIG....and the T-1 Trust is.
Except they are no longer dreaming. They have been doing for some time now.
Hot Water posted:AMCDave posted:If you are going to dream.....dream BIG....and the T-1 Trust is.
Except they are no longer dreaming. They have been doing for some time now.
I think I have been watching from about the start. As a PRR fan both real and scale I was very interested. Don't get me wrong here.....but I doubt I will see it finished....and I ain't at retirement age yet!! I really hope I do get to see it........but......this will have to do for me.
Third boiler course was just ordered. https://www.facebook.com/t1loc.../?type=3&theater
Of all the engines I would have liked to see resurrected from extinction ... the T1 would have been my first choice! Nothing like it exists!
What an exciting project!
David
Rule292 posted:Kelly Anderson posted:It is a little strange. In our experience as a code shop when building a new boiler, our third party inspector won't allow us to acquire materials until the design is completed and approved and a job number is assigned. If that is the case, and Continental or whoever is the boiler maker, do they plan on keeping the job open and pecking away at it a little at a time for the next ten or twenty years? That ties up a lot of space in their shop, and asks for a lot of inefficiency as the job starts and stops, materials are acquired and then possibly lost or damaged before they are assembled, people working on the job come and go, and as possible changes come to the ASME code. Been there, done that, and it sucks. Far better to fully fund and ram the boiler through to completion as one continuous job.
You've made a good example of why consultants command a decent salary for their advice. Experience and expertise.
Good advice is priceless. Working without it can lead to costly mistakes.
I wish the T1 Trust all the luck in the world. Let the light of 1361 shine brightly on all.
Err, 1361 if PRRis a K4s. And in pieces!
And a T1 could answer some questions and myths.
Awesome news! I'm so glad the team behind the T1 Project is competent and organized (something a lot of other steam restoration projects lack entirely). They are the best two qualities you can have when asking for people's donations IMO. They are going to do big things. Mark. My. Words.
Its rather funny to me that the continual naysayers, who don't ever seem impressed, continue to be pessimistic as progress continues to be shown.
PennsyPride94 posted:Its rather funny to me that the continual naysayers, who don't ever seem impressed, continue to be pessimistic as progress continues to be shown.
To whom are you referring?
smd4 posted:PennsyPride94 posted:Its rather funny to me that the continual naysayers, who don't ever seem impressed, continue to be pessimistic as progress continues to be shown.
To whom are you referring?
No one in particular, but there is a rather large group of naysayers about this project on here and elsewhere and frankly with how much good progress the T1 Trust is making it just astonishes me that they still find a way to be overly critical. Of course nothing is perfect, but I think the days of the T1 Trust being a "joke", as some would say, is long over.
Where are they going to run this ?
PennsyPride94 posted:No one in particular, but there is a rather large group of naysayers about this project on here and elsewhere and frankly with how much good progress the T1 Trust is making it just astonishes me that they still find a way to be overly critical. Of course nothing is perfect, but I think the days of the T1 Trust being a "joke", as some would say, is long over.
OK. Just wondering where I can find the postings of these "naysayers." I would be interested in their thoughts, and I'm sorry--or fascinated--that you can't point me to them, considering them a "large group."
smd4 posted:PennsyPride94 posted:No one in particular, but there is a rather large group of naysayers about this project on here and elsewhere and frankly with how much good progress the T1 Trust is making it just astonishes me that they still find a way to be overly critical. Of course nothing is perfect, but I think the days of the T1 Trust being a "joke", as some would say, is long over.
OK. Just wondering where I can find the postings of these "naysayers." I would be interested in their thoughts, and I'm sorry--or fascinated--that you can't point me to them, considering them a "large group."
Most of them are on Facebook and not worth digging for.
I do hope those that look at this project as still a hoax or whatever adjective that they'd like to use inform themselves more as time moves on, because, again, the T1 Trust is very competent and organized in their goals.
clem k posted:Where are they going to run this ?
Take a look at their website. They have letters of commitment from a few regional/short line railroads. I know one of them is Steamtown and another maybe the Nittany and Bald Eagle, but again their website will tell you more.
Scoffers and naysayers generally fall into a couple of categories IME:
1)Those who do little themselves, and make themselves feel better by scoffing at the efforts of others who try to do things
2)Those who believe they know better how to do things, like where to spend money, especially telling other people how they should spend their money (and before someone turns this into a political discussion, I am not talking politics, talking individuals). This has a couple of subcategories, as in "why spend money to build a new locomotive when there are people needing help out there" to those saying "why waste time and effort on that project when projectA or Project B are clearly more deserving" Not talking things like technical observations, like the item about how the drivers are made, talking more about doing the project at all, there is a difference between opinion and expertise.
3)Those who seem to thrive on the idea nothing is worth doing in the rotten times we live in (type 3 has existed all through human history, I am sure the inventors of writing, the wheel, mathematics, the sailboat, the compass et al heard the same thing; can you imagine the sourpusses in the Roman Empire decrying the building of their roads?).
Every project has its own dynamics, and people approach things differently, why they are doing what they are doing with the T1 project is known to them, and to me it doesn't change what they are doing *shrug*. How you approach a project seems to remind me of an old "All in the Family Episode" where Archie notices that his son in law puts his socks and shoes on by putting on sock1, shoe1, sock2, shoe 2 instead of sock1, sock2, shoe1, shoe 2, and calls him to task, and the son in law tells him if he does what he does, and has to run out of a burning house into the rain, he can stand on one foot and remain dry, while Archie would be soaked with his socks only..matter of perspective *lol*. I wish them well, any progress is good progress in my book, if I can spare a couple of bucks I'll send it there way, I love people who can dream.
One of the members of this board wrote an article in Model Railroader magazine back in the 1980s about kitbashing a steam locomotive using parts from two different manufacturers. He made it a point of making sure the motor mechanism operated correctly before spending any time on the plastic superstructure and external details, explaining that it just "wasn't any fun if'n it didn't run."
I guess my approach would be to build from the ground up--wheels, frames, bearings, spring rigging, engine trucks complete, before moving to boiler and cylinders, and only then moving on to construct a cab or shark nose. If you don't have something that you can put these parts on, to me that's wasted money.
But whatever. I guess I'm just a "naysayer." 
Do you think this locomotive will be a sort of hybrid? With all the technology we know today will it have some those improvements say developed into the frame, firebox, and boiler?
Even if they built it exactly to the original drawings, due to the advancement in materials technology alone, I would say yes. Steel making continues to advance year over year. What once could only be accomplished with through vacuum arch remelt can now be had through many standard electric arch furnaces. Even basic oxygen furnaces with ladle refining produce a highly clean steel. Couple that with modern strand casting techniques improving grain structure, computer controlled mills constantly monitoring the production process from every angle, you have a superior product to 80 years ago.
I get their method of building components which make it look more finished first to help aid in appeal and donations. I would bet if it was already fully funded they would take a different approach. However by all indications the people involved seem to know what they are doing and have their stuff together.
smd4 posted:One of the members of this board wrote an article in Model Railroader magazine back in the 1980s about kitbashing a steam locomotive using parts from two different manufacturers. He made it a point of making sure the motor mechanism operated correctly before spending any time on the plastic superstructure and external details, explaining that it just "wasn't any fun if'n it didn't run."
I guess my approach would be to build from the ground up--wheels, frames, bearings, spring rigging, engine trucks complete, before moving to boiler and cylinders, and only then moving on to construct a cab or shark nose. If you don't have something that you can put these parts on, to me that's wasted money.
But whatever. I guess I'm just a "naysayer."
Although I agree in principle, this may be necessary to budgeting and available fabricating slots with the contractors. I'm sure the investors appreciate seeing progress in any form being made.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:smd4 posted:One of the members of this board wrote an article in Model Railroader magazine back in the 1980s about kitbashing a steam locomotive using parts from two different manufacturers. He made it a point of making sure the motor mechanism operated correctly before spending any time on the plastic superstructure and external details, explaining that it just "wasn't any fun if'n it didn't run."
I guess my approach would be to build from the ground up--wheels, frames, bearings, spring rigging, engine trucks complete, before moving to boiler and cylinders, and only then moving on to construct a cab or shark nose. If you don't have something that you can put these parts on, to me that's wasted money.
But whatever. I guess I'm just a "naysayer."
Although I agree in principle, this may be necessary to budgeting and available fabricating slots with the contractors. I'm sure the investors appreciate seeing progress in any form being made.
Rusty
I agree. It makes no sense from either a monetary aspect or an advertising one for the T1 trust to go ahead and fund a boiler or frame from the get go. Both are enormously expensive and its highly unlikely that as a new group the T1 trust would garner enough publicity early on to get it full funded. If they tried that I would guarantee you most consumers would laugh at them and it would die on the vine. What would be your first reaction if a random group, with no connections or information as to their where about, comes out asking for donations to build a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson and wants automatically 500 K for the boiler alone?
What the T1 Trust has essentially done has made an organized and step-wise procedure at testing the waters about the interest for this locomotive. By building smaller pieces of the entire locomotive, the T1 Trust essentially creates capital for themselves in different forms to garner more publicity, more accolades, and, generally, a more trustworthy reputation that people's money is being put to use and not used unreasonably. And as a result more people continue to donate as do the ones that already have.
Is the current climate of Amtrak and freight railroads seemingly against steam, going to hurt ?
J Daddy posted:Do you think this locomotive will be a sort of hybrid? With all the technology we know today will it have some those improvements say developed into the frame, firebox, and boiler?
That depends on how you define "hybrid". I like to think of #5550 as how Baldwin/Altoona would have built it if steam lasted longer than it did. Built to the original design with some things added here and there.
