PS2 3V, speed control off in conventional, shuts itself off

Well now it will shut itself off (no sound, no smoke, no movement but all lights are on) after about 1-2 minutes of running conventionally with the speed control on or off. When it shuts itself off there are no shut down sounds. A loud hum/moan will come from the tender when this happens if I turn track power off. Turn track power back on will have start up sounds play and the engine will operate again.

It will sit in neutral for 5 minutes without shutting down. 

Is something on the board overheating? Any ideas as to a cause?

Yes.  Need to have the processor inspected.  I have a feeling a diode on the motor Fet circuit is shorted or failed.  Your lights stay on because the engine probably has the CV board powered from track power for all the other premier light features an upgrade kit can't address.  G

So nothing I can check myself. Any idea what might have caused the failure? The previous owner had it converted to PS2 3v in 2012 and hadn't run it much.

Can any authorized MTH repair facility check it out? I have one near my house.

I forgot but it has also failed another way a couple of times. When running the sounds and smoke will drop out but the engine will continue to run, locked in forward. Shutting power off for 30 seconds will reboot it and everything will work again.

Well I dropped it off at a local hobby shop that is a MTH repair facility. I should have it back in 6-8 weeks 😕. They should be able to figure it out. 

Do these PS2 3V boards just have random failures like this or did I somehow damage something? The previous owner said it functioned fine on DCS. I've run it conventionally with a postwar ZW (with an external 10 amp breaker and TVS), using the whistle button on the ZW and a 5906 sound button for the bell. It ran fine for 45 minutes then this happened. I did add a 10k OHM volume pot and smoke unit switch to the locomotive (so I could adjust volume and turn the smoke on and off conventionally). The engine never derailed. So what happened?

If wired wrong on the switches, or a strand of wire touching chassis could cause issues.  Sounds like the PS board is shutting down or you have a bad harnesses or harness connection that is interrupting power.  Of course it can be other things.  Normally 3V very reliable.  G

None of the wires on the switches I installed touch the chassis at all. Everything is insulated. I followed the switch installation instructions in the PS2 conversion manual to a T. I did check to make sure the plugs were fully seated in the board but everything was tight. Like I said no derailments or shorts occurred when running the engine, which is why this is baffling to me. 

Is it possible the tether between the engine and tender could cause the issue? I don't have to wiggle it to make the locomotive turn back on again though. I know that when the whistle is operated using a postwar ZW I have to push the button about half way to operate the whistle, and the locomotive slows down. Could that have hurt something on the board? That has never hurt any other MTH/Lionel TMCC/Railsounds locomotive I own, but maybe the PS2 electronics are more sensitive? 

Shoot some pictures of the install.  IF the engine stops and shuts down on its own and you do nothing and them it starts back up on its own, it sounds like a board problem of some sort.  But can be a bad smoke unit fan and or heater touching chassis.  COuld be the harness, but odd it starts back on its own.  Time for a tech to check it out.  G

I'll post up what it was when I get the locomotive back. 

I'm hoping it's not something I did (doubtful) or the whole board. 

Local hobby shop did a factory reset. Had it running for 25 minutes at 30 scale mph. Ran fine. I took it home. Started running it at 30 scale mph conventionally (I have 2 poles 3 feet apart on my layout so I can calculate train speed). Ran fine for 10 minutes. Increased speed to 50 scale mph. Made one loop and then shut off. Back to square one. So back to the hobby shop it goes. It is most definitely speed related. It was tested under DCS and conventional power under 35 scale mph and works fine.

So as a recap:

MTH Premier GS4 Daylight, originally PS1, converted to PS2 3V. Locomotive is being operated conventionally by a Postwar ZW with added external circuit breakers and TVS diodes. Locomotive has not derailed or shorted in any way. Any speed above 45 scale mph with speed control on or off one of two things will happen. Either:

The locomotive shuts off completely. Motion, smoke, and sound turn off with no shutdown sounds. If track power is turned off for 10 seconds locomotive will play startup sounds and run normal.

The locomotive will run but lose sound, smoke, and directional control. It will be locked in its current direction of travel. If track power is shut off for 30 seconds or more and turned back on locomotive will play startup sounds and operate normally again. 

If 45 scale mph is exceeded again one of the above two scenarios happens. 

The tach tape is fine. I checked. I can't think of anything else to check. 

If the board is shot I may just gut the PS2 out of the locomotive and install a Dallee reverse unit and Lionel Daylight railsounds board. It would be cheaper and I won't miss the PS2 command functions since I run conventionally. 

This is the first "high tech" locomotive I've bought. Thus far I am not impressed. All my old 90's QSI reverse unit/PS1/TMCC/RailSounds II&III "junk" works just like the day I bought it.

Also as a side note in conventional operation with cruise on maximum speed at a handle indicated 20 volts on a postwar ZW (with 6 16" aluminum passenger cars in tow) is 55 scale mph. Cruise off (with 6 16" aluminum passenger cars in tow) postwar ZW handle indicated 14 volts is 65 scale mph, 16 volts 87 scale mph.

This is the first "high tech" locomotive I've bought. Thus far I am not impressed.

IMO, it sounds as if the fault isn't with the manufacturer. Rather, it's with whomever converted it to PS2.

Seems to be more of an MTH issue than an installation issue. I popped the tender and locomotive shells and everything is wired correctly according to the PS2 conversion instructions. 

Could this be some kind of tether issue? I.E. the speed is causing the tether to come loose. Seems that if it was a loose tether issue turning the track power on and off again, without touching the locomotive, shouldn't allow it to restart. 

Lou,

Seems to be more of an MTH issue than an installation issue.

Really? Why is that?

I popped the tender and locomotive shells and everything is wired correctly according to the PS2 conversion instructions. 

Yeah, it looks good now. What happened between the start and the end of the conversion process is a big unknown. Last one in gets the credit - or the blame.

All you know is that the engine was broken when you bought it. You should talk to whoever sold it to you after the the conversion.

Lou1985 posted:

….

So back to the hobby shop it goes. It is most definitely speed related. It was tested under DCS and conventional power under 35 scale mph and works fine.

I assume the first thing your LHS will do this time is to run it at >50 sMPH!  Also, I assume the engine gears have been properly maintained-lubed.

Call this nit-picking, but the symptoms suggest a power related issue.  Obviously, speed and power are intimately related.  When you mention time-dependent behavior to get it back to "normal" operation, I think electronic component over-heating...as opposed to electro-mechanical component breakdown when reaching 50 sMPH.

So, two ideas if you're continuing down the DIY diagnostic path.

1) Run the engine without the passenger car load.  For the same 50 sMPH speed, this reduces the power demand on the transistors, diodes, etc. on the PS2 board.  If the shutdown speed increases to, say, 60 sMPH that would be a telling symptom.  Or, if your tests were without load then add as many heavy cars as possible to make the electronics work hard to achieve the same speed.  Then, if the shutdown speed decreases to, say, 40 sMPH that would be an equally telling symptom.

2) Pull the 12-pin harness from the PS2 board and run the engine.  You will not get any smoke or sound since the volume control and smoke switch wires are on that 12-pin harness.  But the engine itself should move fwd and rev.  Does it still shutdown at 50 sMPH?  This is not conclusive but could help isolate (or at least put your mind at ease) as to whether your wiring modifications are related.

To be clear, even if these tests shed new light, if it is indeed a component-related issue you will be hard-pressed to repair it yourself as the components can be difficult to change and MTH does not publish component-level schematics or parts lists.  So it would have to go to your repair shop anyway.  

stan2004 posted:

Lou1985 posted:

….

So back to the hobby shop it goes. It is most definitely speed related. It was tested under DCS and conventional power under 35 scale mph and works fine.

I assume the first thing your LHS will do this time is to run it at >50 sMPH!  Also, I assume the engine gears have been properly maintained-lubed.

Call this nit-picking, but the symptoms suggest a power related issue.  Obviously, speed and power are intimately related.  When you mention time-dependent behavior to get it back to "normal" operation, I think electronic component over-heating...as opposed to electro-mechanical component breakdown when reaching 50 sMPH.

So, two ideas if you're continuing down the DIY diagnostic path.

1) Run the engine without the passenger car load.  For the same 50 sMPH speed, this reduces the power demand on the transistors, diodes, etc. on the PS2 board.  If the shutdown speed increases to, say, 60 sMPH that would be a telling symptom.  Or, if your tests were without load then add as many heavy cars as possible to make the electronics work hard to achieve the same speed.  Then, if the shutdown speed decreases to, say, 40 sMPH that would be an equally telling symptom.

2) Pull the 12-pin harness from the PS2 board and run the engine.  You will not get any smoke or sound since the volume control and smoke switch wires are on that 12-pin harness.  But the engine itself should move fwd and rev.  Does it still shutdown at 50 sMPH?  This is not conclusive but could help isolate (or at least put your mind at ease) as to whether your wiring modifications are related.

To be clear, even if these tests shed new light, if it is indeed a component-related issue you will be hard-pressed to repair it yourself as the components can be difficult to change and MTH does not publish component-level schematics or parts lists.  So it would have to go to your repair shop anyway.  

Thanks for the ideas. The engine is properly lubed. Everything turns freely when rotating the motor (via turning the flywheel).  I tried the 12 pin harness trick already and it made no difference. I will try the 1st test, running the engine without the load, and see what happens.

I wish I could figure out what component is bad on the board (if one is) and replace it. Lacking MTH test equipment or any schematic I'm unable to. If it is a motor control issue on the board does that normally require replacing both boards? That's pricey and, if the case, I may end up converting it over to TMCC/Railsounds as I have boards for that already.

The previous owner said that he never ran the locomotive for more than 10-15 minutes at a time and never over 35 scale mph. So he may not have know about the issue. I have two main lines so I usually run freight trains at about 30 scale mph and passenger trains at 70-80 scale mph. Operating sessions usually last 45 minutes to an hour, so nothing that should tax a locomotive.

I had an engine that was upgraded to PS2 by someone else. It would run perfectly. As soon as the speed was set to anything higher than 44 MPH, the engine would stop and restart. I never found out what was wrong. That tech swapped out the board for me and all was fine after that.

Engineer-Joe posted:

I had an engine that was upgraded to PS2 by someone else. It would run perfectly. As soon as the speed was set to anything higher than 44 MPH, the engine would stop and restart. I never found out what was wrong. That tech swapped out the board for me and all was fine after that.

Did the locomotive stop and sound/smoke cut off? Did turning track power on and off cause the locomotive to restart? If so that's exactly what is happening to my locomotive. Do you happen to recall which of the two boards was replaced?

Does anyone have a ballpark guess on what this is going to cost to repair?

 I had just received the engine from the tech. On testing, it would stop after it reach over 44 MPH. I remember that if I ran it slower, it would run without stopping. I think that was something like 8 years ago? I really don't remember the whole facts well.

 I contacted the tech who told me to yank out the boards and send just them back to him. After that and the three times I went inside the engine for other issues like adjusting the # of stripes, broken coupler wires from shipping, etc., I started installing the PS boards myself.

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I had just received the engine from the tech. On testing, it would stop after it reach over 44 MPH. I remember that if I ran it slower, it would run without stopping. I think that was something like 8 years ago? I really don't remember the whole facts well.

 I contacted the tech who told me to yank out the boards and send just them back to him. After that and the three times I went inside the engine for other issues like adjusting the # of stripes, broken coupler wires from shipping, etc., I started installing the PS boards myself.

Ah. I was hoping you had found out what the issue was with the board/boards. Did it end up having anything to do with the stripe tape on the flywheel or was that a different issue?

Nothing to do with the stripes or other issues. See my earlier post.

I wonder if the processor gets confused? Maybe the clickity clack turns on and stops the engine .

The funny thing was I got a replacement older board. The new board may have been a 2 meg board but I will never know. I didn't know enough to inspect it. I thought I would get another new board. I did pay for one. When you need a warranty, you have to take what they give you. Another reason I started installing for myself.

Engineer-Joe posted:

Nothing to do with the stripes or other issues. See my earlier post.

I wonder if the processor gets confused? Maybe the clickity clack turns on and stops the engine .

The funny thing was I got a replacement older board. The new board may have been a 2 meg board but I will never know. I didn't know enough to inspect it. I thought I would get another new board. I did pay for one. When you need a warranty, you have to take what they give you. Another reason I started installing for myself.

I didn't think it was the tach tape, based on your previous response, but I figured I'd check.

I'm kinda out of options for things I can fix. It's gotta either be a board component overheating or maybe (fingers crossed because it's cheap) the sound file has an issue. 

Back it goes to the shop on Friday. Hopefully I'll get a detailed explanation of what the heck is wrong with it.

Well doing some digging I found thread about the exact issue I'm having: https://ogrforum.com/...ss-of-control-defect

Looks like both PS2 3V boards in the engine probably have to be replaced. Any idea how much that is going to run? It's waaaaaay out of any sort of warranty (upgrade done in 2012). My guess is both boards are $200, plus the cost of labor, so probably ball park of $300 total.  

hi why don't you contact GGG he can repair your boards sometimes or just send him the whole engine!

Alan

Alan Mancus posted:

hi why don't you contact GGG he can repair your boards sometimes or just send him the whole engine!

Alan

I agree with this. The problem would be if there's some other type of overload or short causing the boards to shut down. Replacing just the boards without full testing might not solve it. The best thing would be to have G (or a MTH tech) test the board set for the processor shut down issue. It might be where just the processor board needs changing or maybe not?

 I have seen where a board will stop an engine when the tape stripes are way off what the board expects them to be. I have seen where bad tethers on the steamers cause it to shut down. I just had one where the smoke fet shorted causing the boards to shut down. So there are other reasons.

Lou,

Too bad you are having a bad experience with your first MTH PS2 engine.

Without a board tester and knowing how many amps the engine is drawing, with smoke on and off, your are just guessing in my opinion.  And you may only need one of the boards new or repaired, not both.

Some converted PS-1 engines have different gear ratios then their later cousins that were made with PS-2.  So the sound file when loaded does not give exact scale speeds.  It can be fine tuned, but if you are "anal" about scale speed and I mean that in a nice way, a converted steam engine is probably not for you.  Buy a Manufacture engine with PS-2 or 3.

As far as pulling all those cars and such if your wheels slip a little pulling that load, scale speed will be off.  This is not GPS, it assumes gear ration and course tach read to give an approximation of scale speed.  Faster you try to go, the more scale speed will be off, especially with tight curves and such, so even layout comes in to play.

An older upgrade really needs to be looked at in total.  The person doing the upgrade already took short cuts.  The smoke switch was on the harness he just had to install it.  The PS-1 comes with a volume pot he just need to solder 3 wires too it.

Smoke fan motor can cause this, PV diodes can cause this, harness can cause this, and of course one of the boards can have a component failure when hot.  It is a board set and they can be tested separately, so in most case one or the other is replaced repaired.  BUT PS-2 3V Processor boards are obsolete.   So if it is bad, you could be looking at a PS-32 upgrade.  That would be cheaper since the engine is already upgraded, but the engine needs to be tested.

Sorry your first experience was not good, but that is like buying a used car that was salvaged and resold by a car dealer and blaming the manufacture for the poor quality of the reconstruction, done by some amateur mechanics trying to maximize profit.  G

I'm calculating speed (since I run conventional) using the tried and true distance and time method. It's been matching exactly the speed in the other two instances above where the locomotives have shut down.

I will be bringing the locomotive to a local hobby shop tomorrow for testing. They have a tech with a board tester, so I am getting that done. The main question is, since the PS2 3V board is obsolete, is the cost to replace one or both boards if they test bad. I'm guessing in the $200-300 range. Am I correct in that guess?

I do have an ERR Daylight railsounds board (turns out not the TMCC board I thought I also had). Reason I have it is my original plan was to buy a Williams brass GS4 and upgrade it. If both boards end up having to be replaced I have though of just picking up a reverse unit and installing that and the ERR Railsounds board. I'd lose smoke chuffing, which I like, and some PS2 features (crew talk is garbage, speed control) which can go either way, since I run conventionally. But this is at a let's see what the tech says stage.

I'd feel a little bad going with a reverse unit, ERR Railsounds, and non chuffing smoke in this locomotive, especially since it is a Premier model. But that's basically how it came from the factory, being originally a PS1 engine. 

Lou1985 posted:

stan2004 posted:

...

1) Run the engine without the passenger car load.  For the same 50 sMPH speed, this reduces the power demand on the transistors, diodes, etc. on the PS2 board.  If the shutdown speed increases to, say, 60 sMPH that would be a telling symptom.  Or, if your tests were without load then add as many heavy cars as possible to make the electronics work hard to achieve the same speed.  Then, if the shutdown speed decreases to, say, 40 sMPH that would be an equally telling symptom.

...

Thanks for the ideas. The engine is properly lubed. Everything turns freely when rotating the motor (via turning the flywheel).  I tried the 12 pin harness trick already and it made no difference. I will try the 1st test, running the engine without the load, and see what happens.

...

So did you try running the engine with NO load?  Did that change the speed threshold where bad things started happening?

As before, I believe you have a power-related problem.  If the tech simply puts the PS2 boards into a bench-test-fixture, it may check out fine.  From photos I've seen of the test fixture, it's not clear that there's a way to load the motor electronics with the equivalent power to run a GS-4 at 50 sMPH down a track.   Again, even if it is a component-related issue (e.g., a single bad $2 transistor), it's not clear on the business proposition for a service tech to perform component-level diagnosis/repair.

Lou1985 posted:

...

I will be bringing the locomotive to a local hobby shop tomorrow for testing. They have a tech with a board tester, so I am getting that done. The main question is, since the PS2 3V board is obsolete, is the cost to replace one or both boards if they test bad. I'm guessing in the $200-300 range. Am I correct in that guess?

... 

Obsolete is one thing (no longer in production) - but also from what I read here on OGR - very difficult to find and getting harder by the day.  When in production the prices were published for the 2 boards individually.  IIRC they were something like $75 each with the processor board being a bit more.  So I don't think there's an "official" price for the boards at this point so it might be a case of the price being whatever the market will bear.

You can do a loading, perhaps not a "full" loading on the test fixture.  I just grab the flywheel and retard it's rotation to increase the load when testing.  This is a bit harder on the PS/3 test fixture as they used a very small motor in the fixture, most likely an HO motor.

I believe the MSRP of the two PS/2 3V boards was $80 for the power supply and $120 for the processor.  Of course, as Stan says, now the price is whatever you can find.   I have an extra power supply board if you're looking for one of those.

stan2004 posted:

Lou1985 posted:

stan2004 posted:

...

1) Run the engine without the passenger car load.  For the same 50 sMPH speed, this reduces the power demand on the transistors, diodes, etc. on the PS2 board.  If the shutdown speed increases to, say, 60 sMPH that would be a telling symptom.  Or, if your tests were without load then add as many heavy cars as possible to make the electronics work hard to achieve the same speed.  Then, if the shutdown speed decreases to, say, 40 sMPH that would be an equally telling symptom.

...

Thanks for the ideas. The engine is properly lubed. Everything turns freely when rotating the motor (via turning the flywheel).  I tried the 12 pin harness trick already and it made no difference. I will try the 1st test, running the engine without the load, and see what happens.

...

So did you try running the engine with NO load?  Did that change the speed threshold where bad things started happening?

As before, I believe you have a power-related problem.  If the tech simply puts the PS2 boards into a bench-test-fixture, it may check out fine.  From photos I've seen of the test fixture, it's not clear that there's a way to load the motor electronics with the equivalent power to run a GS-4 at 50 sMPH down a track.   Again, even if it is a component-related issue (e.g., a single bad $2 transistor), it's not clear on the business proposition for a service tech to perform component-level diagnosis/repair.

 

I did not try the test yesterday. I got home late from work and my wife was going to bed early. She does not appreciate me running trains when she is trying to sleep, because apparently she can still hear them two floors up . I will try running the locomotive on it's own tonight and see what happens. I had run the locomotive with a lighter train (8 freight cars vs the 6 aluminum passenger cars it was running with) on another loop it did the same thing it was doing with the heavier train.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can do a loading, perhaps not a "full" loading on the test fixture.  I just grab the flywheel and retard it's rotation to increase the load when testing.  This is a bit harder on the PS/3 test fixture as they used a very small motor in the fixture, most likely an HO motor.

I believe the MSRP of the two PS/2 3V boards was $80 for the power supply and $120 for the processor.  Of course, as Stan says, now the price is whatever you can find.   I have an extra power supply board if you're looking for one of those.

So basically I'd be getting two new PS3 boards if either board has an issue, since the PS2 3V boards are pretty much no longer available. 

I still have to have the tech figure out what is wrong before I buy a board. If it is the power supply board I'll drop you a line.

The only reasonably simple way to find out is to swap out one board at a time.  I typically try a new power board first as a bad power board can take out the processor, but it's less likely that a bad processor will take out the power board.  Of course, having the test set makes this process considerably simpler.

I called MTH to get an opinion. I explained the issue to Don on their tech line. He thinks it's a relay on the processor board that's cutting out when bumped a certain way at higher speed. He said to have the tech bump/wiggle the board when it's in the test fixture to see if it causes it to shut down. If it is that relay it's a $6 part. If not then a PS3 upgrade.

stan2004 posted:

Lou1985 posted:

stan2004 posted:

...

1) Run the engine without the passenger car load.  For the same 50 sMPH speed, this reduces the power demand on the transistors, diodes, etc. on the PS2 board.  If the shutdown speed increases to, say, 60 sMPH that would be a telling symptom.  Or, if your tests were without load then add as many heavy cars as possible to make the electronics work hard to achieve the same speed.  Then, if the shutdown speed decreases to, say, 40 sMPH that would be an equally telling symptom.

...

Thanks for the ideas. The engine is properly lubed. Everything turns freely when rotating the motor (via turning the flywheel).  I tried the 12 pin harness trick already and it made no difference. I will try the 1st test, running the engine without the load, and see what happens.

...

So did you try running the engine with NO load?  Did that change the speed threshold where bad things started happening?

As before, I believe you have a power-related problem.  If the tech simply puts the PS2 boards into a bench-test-fixture, it may check out fine.  From photos I've seen of the test fixture, it's not clear that there's a way to load the motor electronics with the equivalent power to run a GS-4 at 50 sMPH down a track.   Again, even if it is a component-related issue (e.g., a single bad $2 transistor), it's not clear on the business proposition for a service tech to perform component-level diagnosis/repair.

 

Ran engine with no load. Once it exceeded 40 scale mph it shut down. Ran it again with no load and sound turned off and it kept going. So it shuts down above 40 scale mph with a load or without one.

Currently checking to see how long it will run below 40 scale mph before shutting down. 

Ran great for 30 minutes at 30 scale mph. Turned it up to 40 scale mph. Boom stopped dead. No movement, sound, or smoke. So it is speed related and, it does it with a train or without a train. 

Well, thanks for being a good sport with what may now seem like a snipe hunt.  

I eagerly anticipate hearing what your tech comes up with when running the engine above 40.  Unfortunately, I think this a case where the diagnosis will be "bad Processor Board"...as was prescribed in Engineer-Joe's case and the others you found in other threads.  That is, I don't think the typical tech in business can "afford" to perform component-level diagnostics and repair for this type of problem.  It only makes sense for a DIY-enthusiast where this is part of the hobby as opposed to a dollars-and-cents proposition.  So even if the problem could be solved by replacing a $1 component, it's going to "cost" much more to engage someone else's services to identify the component.

stan2004 posted:

Well, thanks for being a good sport with what may now seem like a snipe hunt.  

I eagerly anticipate hearing what your tech comes up with when running the engine above 40.  Unfortunately, I think this a case where the diagnosis will be "bad Processor Board"...as was prescribed in Engineer-Joe's case and the others you found in other threads.  That is, I don't think the typical tech in business can "afford" to perform component-level diagnostics and repair for this type of problem.  It only makes sense for a DIY-enthusiast where this is part of the hobby as opposed to a dollars-and-cents proposition.  So even if the problem could be solved by replacing a $1 component, it's going to "cost" much more to engage someone else's services to identify the component.

 

Snipe hunts are usually more fun after you've had a few beers and you take the person who's never been camping on one 😄.

Unfortunately it's probably going to be a processor board replacement. I don't have the equipment to check the board components. The tech may have some PS2 3V boards around, but he'll have to check. On the bright side the PS3 steam upgrade boards just plug in, so no wiring work has to take place. Hopefully that lowers the cost somewhat. 

But no more used modern trains I can't fix myself, either from board members or eBay, unless I can test it myself before purchase. In the end I could have just bought a used factory PS2 3V GS4 for what this upgraded PS1 GS4 is going to cost with purchase and repairs....