PS2 Engine changes between DCS and Conventional all by itself

Have you checked your DCS signal?  Sounds like you're losing the signal.

TexasSP posted:

Have you checked your DCS signal?  Sounds like you're losing the signal.

I have a double main.  I ran that train around the layout on both loops.  All were 9's and 10's with one 8 which I could not replicate on the next loop around.  No other PS2 or PS3 engine we have behaves this way.

Ron

Product number of engine? 

Trainlover9943 posted:

Product number of engine? 

Not really sure.  I believe it was from a set or uncataloged item.  It is either Railking or Rugged Rails, Pennsylvania 4-6-0 #7080 with a 3V board.  PRR Cab Number 7080 does not show up in an MTH Product Search. 

I purchased the engine several years ago from my LHS to use as a PS2 donor to one of my PS1 engines.  It's been running fine for years.

The Engine looked like This One but it had PS2.

Ron

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Have you checked your DCS signal?  Sounds like you're losing the signal.

This is almost certainly not a DCS. issue. It's much more likely that it's the engine and less likely that it's the layout.

I agree with you Barry.  Especially since none of my other engines behave this way. 

Because this was a doner, I wonder if there is a problem with something that is moving and shorting out the board?  Maybe a wire that was fine for years has moved and touches something it shouldn't on occasion?  

I'm good at remove and replace, but diagnosing electronics is not my fortay.

Ron

Could be a bad harness, or bad solder joints on the engine side PCB.  But the real detailed info on what is happening is important.  Could this also me a speed control issue?  Loosing tach signal or is it really changing modes?  G

I had my MTH Premier F7 act this way and when it first happened I was very upset.  After a lot of checking I found that the Tack Reader mounting was loose and would move around causing the engine to change from DCS control to Conventional while in operation.  After setting the Tack Reader in the proper position and tightening the mounting, no more trouble occured......

The tack reader/cruise control could be it, if you think about it: the eye is missaligned or is lifted off of its sleeve- its still reading with the dcs command. If it does not read the hashmarks on the flywheel, at that moment, it will increase voltage to the motor untill the hashmarks start spinning again. But if its not seated corrected, it will keep spiking the speed up. 

Just as an FYI, I very much doubt that the engine is actually spontaneously switching between cDCS and conventional operation. That would be all but impossible to do.

Much more likely is a tach reader or timing stripes related issue that's causing an inconsistent reading of the revolutions of the flywheel.

One way to tell if it's changing over to conventional is to lock the engine into conventional neutral. 1 horn, 3 bells in conventional mode. It then should just stop if it does drop out of DCS. It's a good idea to lock all your engines in conventional neutral, that you run in DCS mode, to help prevent run away train accidents.

Dave,

Perhaps a simpler test is to play the horn when the engine changes speed. If it's still under DCS control, the whistle should sound.

Barry, Ron stated he looses all control with the remote when this happens. I'm leaning towards a broken wire in the tether or pinched motor wires.

Ron, if you don't have stationary rollers, you can try putting shims under the engine to raise the drive wheels slightly off the rails. Get it running in dcs a few MPH then move the tether side to side to see if that activates the issue. If not try removing the shell and examine any wires that run up over the top of the motor for signs of pinching between the motor and the shell.

Dave,

Ron stated he looses all control with the remote when this happens

I'm thinking what he really meant was that he lost all speed control and didn't try sounding the whistle or bell. It's extremely unlikely that the engine would pop into conventional and back into DCS.

Good point Barry.

Hear is a video to help explain better.  I can start the train with the DCS remote while in "runaway mode".  I can sound the horn and bell.  But it stays in runaway mode until I exceed the speed with the DCS remote.

Sorry I don't know how to post a video from my phone.  Here is the link.

https://youtu.be/ioBs0q5Fx88

Ron

For starters nice layout....I really like the engine as well...

 I'm just guessing but the engine must be locked in forward conventional mode to have it take off if it misses the watch dog.

 Barry Mentioned the track signal did you do a test?

Near the end of the video you shut the engine down  but I couldn't hear how long the sounds continued on after track track power down,  Does this engine have a Battery or is it Proto-3?

Track signal and battery??? I don't think it a engine problem...... what happens on a small test track with a perfect dcs signal, does the engine still miss the watch dog?   

Gregg,

I don't think it a engine problem

I have to disagree.

I think that it is most likely an engine problem and, if not, then a track/wiring/layout issue. It's not a DCS problem at all.

Gregg posted:

For starters nice layout....I really like the engine as well...

 I'm just guessing but the engine must be locked in forward conventional mode to have it take off if it misses the watch dog.

 Barry Mentioned the track signal did you do a test?

Near the end of the video you shut the engine down  but I couldn't hear how long the sounds continued on after track track power down,  Does this engine have a Battery or is it Proto-3?

Track signal and battery??? I don't think it a engine problem...... what happens on a small test track with a perfect dcs signal, does the engine still miss the watch dog?   

Thanks Gregg,

As noted above... 9's and 10's.  PS2 with a BCR2.

No other engines behave this way.  Can't understand how it could be track or DCS.

Ron

Are you able to unlock it from  conventional forward?    How long do the sounds continue on??

Yes poor choice of words when I mentioned I don't think it's an engine problem....

Ok not the dcs  signal or track....which brings me back to the battery/ BCR.

I think you have a shorted motor fet and as soon as power is applied the engine runs.  Or the white motor lead is shorting to chassis ground.  Either at the engine or in the tender.  Remove shells and make sure no pinched wires.  G

The mysterious part of this problem is it eventually runs fine after bringing the remote up to the speed of the engine. Pinched wires, bad fet, bad tether, cannot just fix itself then run normal. Especially when every electronic component is stressed after running that speed. Ron, have you tried a "conventional" reset? 

Dave Zucal posted:

The mysterious part of this problem is it eventually runs fine after bringing the remote up to the speed of the engine. Pinched wires, bad fet, bad tether, cannot just fix itself then run normal. Especially when every electronic component is stressed after running that speed. Ron, have you tried a "conventional" reset? 

1 whistle 5 bells... Right?  Yes.

You can try to   reset all day long  but if the battery is low or the BCR is not working nothing is going to change.

 How long do the engine sounds carry on after track power is turned off.?

Gregg, If the battery or BCR was bad, wouldn't it not remember it's address after shut down and would need re-entered each time it was used.

Gregg posted:

You can try to   reset all day long  but if the battery is low or the BCR is not working nothing is going to change.

 How long do the engine sounds carry on after track power is turned off.?

BCR2 is brand new.    Engine sounds appear normal after proper shutdown.

Dave Zucal posted:

Gregg, If the battery or BCR was bad, wouldn't it not remember it's address after shut down and would need re-entered each time it was used.

No.    Engine IDs stick with the engine unless edited, ID taken when adding or a factory reset.... If the battery  is dead you can't change any settings  including it's ID .

No need to re-add it. you're stuck with that ID  and the engine will run in command , however the slightest power interruption will drop it  into conventional.

 Maybe you're thing about this.....  you add an engine with a weak battery and when adding  a new ID is created.

 After power down the engine reverts back to it's  old ID created when the battery was good.  Now the remote shows the engine with the new ID  and we get the" engine not on track". etc.

So we delete and re-add each time power is shut off.

BCR2 is brand new.    Engine sounds appear normal after proper shutdown.

I'm not sure what a proper shut down means,,, To test the BCR you have to turn off track power and listen for the sounds(. not shut down with the remote.)

Anyway I think I'm barking up the wrong tree.  If  it was mine I'd put a know good battery in the engine.

Keep us posted and good luck.

GGG posted:

I think you have a shorted motor fet and as soon as power is applied the engine runs.  Or the white motor lead is shorting to chassis ground.  Either at the engine or in the tender.  Remove shells and make sure no pinched wires.  G

Thanks George.  I will try that tomorrow.  Just to test my track and DCS signal, tonight I put 13 PS2 and PS3 engines on the track (Minus my one bad actor in question) and turned them all on and ran them at 10 SMPH around the layout.  They all ran perfectly.

I've never done that before.  It was fun.  When I hit that horn/whistle button I thought the roof would come crashing in.  It was impressive.

Shelless running starts tomorrow.  I did take this picture yesterday, but frankly could not tell if anything was bad.  I thought maybe that while line on the tac tape was a scratch, but the reader it below that line so I would not see how that could be a problem.

Ron

The tack reader and tape spacing seems a little close to me however the engine seems to run ok once it gets into command mode.....Having the engine take off in forward makes it difficult for conventional reset and not much time for the BCR to charge. ... , maybe try  turning  the dcs off, get the engine moving  slowly  and try the W/Bell combination.

Menu/ System/ DCS set up/  select the channel and turn off the dcs signal.

I believe at one time a Factory dcs reset would unlock a conventional dir lock with proto-2.  (not the case now with proto3) Trying it might  not be a good thing, because it will delete the engine from the remote and then what do you do??

Where did we get the engine to run correct in command mode?  I thought this engine runs same speed regardless of DCS Setting. Can it be slowed down or sped up with DCS? Can it be stopped with a direction change?  Even a broken clock is right 2 a day.

That tach reader may be damaged and may be dragging down 5V.  It was wearing on Fly Wheel which is never good?

I watched your video, but I would really need to see it in action to go further.  But it always runs in forward and doesn't execute a direction change.  That is a fet issue coupled with some other issue effecting operation. I usually find pinched motor wires when this goes on.  Bleeding PV through motor to AC chassis ground.

For what it is worth, while a PS-3 conventional direction lock can come into play in DCS mode.

I have never seen a PS-2 exhibit that behavior.  G

Where did we get the engine to run correct in command mode?  I thought this engine runs same speed regardless of DCS Setting. Can it be slowed down or sped up with DCS? Can it be stopped with a direction change?  Even a broken clock is right 2 a day.

Near the end of the video...

Today's update...

I removed the shell and the engine acted in it's same poor manor.

Then I tried something different.  I have another PS2 3V steam engine.  I connected the tender from the "bad" Reading engine to the loco from a "known good" PRR engine.

It worked perfectly as expected.

When I hooked up the "known good" PRR tender to the "bad" Reading loco, I experienced the same startup problems and run away in conventional mode.

So can I assume that the problem lies in the Reading loco engine and not with the PS2 board or BCR2 located in the tender?

Maybe the tac tape reader?  The 8 pin wiring harness?  Motor?  something else?

Ron

You are lucky.  Many times you can damage a board that way.  All locos are not wired the same, of the same type or have the same configuration.  SO that rather be lucky phrase counts

Yes, that means it is an engine issue.  And again.  If you apply track power and the engine immediately moves that means the motor wires have a short or the motor itself.  Now that the board has been cleared.

If it does not move until you move DCS to the first speed step and then it takes off full speed that can be a tach wire or tach reader issue.  Touch white motor lead with meter and put other lead on chassis.  If you read a low ohms near 0 it is shorted.  G

GGG posted:

You are lucky.  Many times you can damage a board that way.  All locos are not wired the same, of the same type or have the same configuration.  SO that rather be lucky phrase counts

Yes, that means it is an engine issue.  And again.  If you apply track power and the engine immediately moves that means the motor wires have a short or the motor itself.  Now that the board has been cleared.

If it does not move until you move DCS to the first speed step and then it takes off full speed that can be a tach wire or tach reader issue.  Touch white motor lead with meter and put other lead on chassis.  If you read a low ohms near 0 it is shorted.  G

Wholly smokes, I had no clue that the wiring for a similar board could be different.

You nailed it George.  The engine does take off right away.  So the White wire and chassis when touched does not move the ohm meter at all.

Should I assume just the White wire is bad or just replace the entire 8 pin wire harness?

Thanks!

Ron

Ron, In your video you are able to regain full DCS control. You even have reverse. That would be impossible with a short to the chassis. I would try installing another tach reader, even if you borrow one from another engine, to run a test. 

If the meter does not move, does that mean 0 ohms?  If so just find the short?  The solder joint at motor terminal looks ragged and maybe the solder is touching motor can.  Or the insulation has cracked and exposed wire strands are touching motor can, or chassis under the motor.  Also inspect the 10 pin PCB at back of engine where the tether connects.  Are those solder joints clean pin to pin and trace to trace.   G

GGG, how is it possible if a physical unwanted connection is being made to be able to regain full control like the physical connection no longer exist. What am I missing?  

Dave,

how is it possible if a physical unwanted connection is being made to be able to regain full control like the physical connection no longer exist. What am I missing?

It appears that the connection is intermittent. It makes and breaks with the motion of the engine.