PW 681 loco wheel removal

I am wondering are the wheels pressed onto the axle?

 If that is the case is there some technique, or special tool to use removing them in order to not damage the wheels trying to get them off?

Use  two flate bladed screw drives and slowly press off, keeping wheel at a 90 degree to axles as best as you can. Keet as close to axle as possible when you pry.

There is very little that you can't get to because of the wheels being in place, and nothing mechanical.  I would avoid pulling wheels unless it's absolutely necessary to fix a mechanical problem like a broken wheel or bent axle... once you start, the wheels and axles are never quite the same.  Do you have any pictures to share as to what you are dealing with?

If you need the wheels pressed on let me know, I have the cups and press

Here are some pictures of what it looks like.  Note my picture taking ability is surpassed only by my ability to know how to take off these wheels.  

The shell is in surprisingly good shape.  I am hesitant to try removing the wheels and then getting them back on after some of the warnings posted above.  It would just make the cleanup a whole lot easier and I would like to get it nice again and pass it along to my nephew.

Thanks,

Ed

Your locomotive is a good candidate for the electrolysis method of rust removal. See a previous thread with a link to instructions. Using that method, you would not need to remove the wheels at all, and the frame and wheels would be completely clean of rust.

Larry

Larry,

Your suggestion for electrolysis  sounds like the ticket.  It appears that getting them off, as well as getting them back on again quartered is more than I want to tackle.  I am going to try this.  The rear truck of the engine has a ton of rust on it and I just figured on replacing it.  I'll be interested in seeing how that piece works as well. Maybe the rust hasn't pitted it already.   This just seems like the easiest thing to try.  As I said the shell is in good shape so I really want to get this looking good again.

Stew -  I appreciate the offer to press the wheels back on. Thx

Thanks everyone for the tips.

Ed

I would find an auto restoration shop or body shop that does soda blasting, or walnut shell as a blasting media. This will not damage the frame, and will clean it nicely. That would avoid pulling the wheels; you could soda blast or shell blast the entire metal parts that make up your loco, then prime and paint to your heart's content. Some time is involved, but it would be bringing a PW classic back to life. 

I would not pull the wheels on that chassis, and I have all the tools required to remove and reinstall them.

I know its a dirty word around here, but I would do one or both of the following:

1 - clean the chassis in an ultrasonic cleaner.

2 -

put undiluted Simple Green in a spray bottle and spray the chassis.

Scrub with a stiff toothbrush

rinse carefully with hot tap water

grasp firmly and shake out as much water as possible.

hang in front of a fan to dry.

Carefully apply a metal protectant to all parts except the wheel treads and flanges.

I use Simple Green in my ultrasonic cleaner, occasionally with a bit of white vinegar added. This solution will also dissolve some rust. Warning: this solution will also remove blackening.

It is important to carefully rinse away all the Simple Green, and dry the item as quickly as possible. The cleaner will wash away any metal protectant, and bare metal will often get "flash rust", which is a light coating of rust. If you avoid any skin contact with the piece, this is the time to reblacken. The blackening will often cause flash rust too. The reapplication of metal protectectant will usually wipe the rust away.

I like CRC 2-26. I also have some Starrett M-1 (non-aerosol) around somewhere. I would like to read what others use.

quote:

Your locomotive is a good candidate for the electrolysis method of rust removal. 

It looks to me like most of the damage is on the cast chassis, which is non-ferrous. What is the electrolysis method going to do?

Ed,  Quartering is very important too or the side rods can 'lock'.  How about trying naval jelly?  I would try almost anything before pulling wheels because it is hard to get them back on properly and STRAIGHT!  If you know someone who has the quartering tools and the wheel cups then maybe.   I pulled one drive wheel on an American flyer engine and had a heck of a time trying to get it back on properly, even with a press.  The chassis does not have to be 'perfect' just clean.  

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

The hard facts.... to do the Job properly the wheels will need to be pulled. And as you have heard, it is tricky, and a lot of work (and luck!). The worm gear and smoke cam will have to be removed and then  replaced properly. The center wheels need to go first and replaced last.  The axle bearings and magnetic sideframes need to be removed. The frame will need to be blasted and repainted.

 I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know that from the surface it doesn't look too difficult until you get into it.

 This is one case I would let an expert do it, of look at the auction site for a used frame.

I guess the level of effort required would depend on the desired outcome. Do you want to make the locomotive operational, or restore it?

A restoration would require all the work Chuck Sartor noted.
No disrespect towards Chuck intended, but I don't think all that needs to be done to make it run.

As Chuck wrote, perhaps the best solution would be to find a rolling chassis.

I am not looking for a collector type restoration.  I just want to get it looking and running nice.  

Removing wheels is a last resort for me as I do not have the proper tools to insure I can get them  off in one piece and then back on and quartered.

I am trying the electrolysis route.  In fact it is in the bucket now and bubbling like crazy.  I pulled it out a little bit ago and I can already see a noticeable difference on the frame. I am not sure how long it needs to stay in the bucket.  I guess I'll just check it once in a while.

Thanks everyone for the tips.  Hopefully I'll be able to get it all back together and working again.  I've got the diagram so it shouldn't be too hard.  Some parts will have to be replaced.

Thanks,

Ed

a cheap and effective solution is to soak the chassis in CLR, then clean up with dremel andp wire wheel. first get rid of any grease or oil. i have gotten great results using this methodmethod.

regards,

joe geiser

Ed,

The bubbling is normal, and shows the process is working. You may need to leave it in several hours, or overnight if needed. No harm will be done to leave it in a long time, as the process will not attack good, unrusted metal, and will not affect paint.

C.W. Burfle:

  The electrolysis process will work on any metal, ferrous or nonferrous, as they all conduct electricity, which is the key. Electrolysis is the process that causes the rust in the first place, and it is the process used to remove it also.

Larry

How about leaving the wheels on and cleaning the chassis with a wire wheel on a Dremel or a bench grinder?

Oops. I see that Joe already suggested that.

This thread has had some very interesting information on the drive train of the 1946 671 and 726.  If someone knows, I would like to learn a little more about the double worm drive.  Are the worm gears on the drive shaft coordinated so the shafts would be interchangeable?  Or does the placement of the worm wheels on the front and rear drive axles have to be custom fit to match the worms on the double worm gear drive shaft?  

If the worm gears are coornated on the drive shaft, then Lionel probably had some  interesting hard tooling to assemble the wheels, axles, and worm wheels.  If the worm gears on the shaft were not coordinated, Lionel would have had to assemble the loco frames one at a time just like we would have to for maintenance.