Q: WWYD when Lionel "Upgrade" boards do not exist?

I’m only guessing as to what you might have. To me if I could only have one feature only of command control. It would be some form of cruise. I know Lionel offered kits to upgrade the sounds and give you command. But not sure if some of the early offerings had Odyssey. The early TMCC diesels can sometimes be had for $200 to $250. As you mentioned the price of an ERR setup.

If you ran your engine in conventional while looking for the TMCC version. If you find one. You could always gut the motors of what you have and turn it into a non powered unit to run with it.

Another option is forget about upgrading to TMCC. I’ve no experience on the subject. But I’ve read a lot of good things about the Blunami that’s out there. Right here on the Forum. Runs off your phone. Good engine control and variety of sounds. With a price of around $200. It seems to have a lot of people it seems interested as far as a more economical upgrade.

@Homey B posted:

First, keep it as/is and love it the way she rolls now with a hope that someday I find the correct module.  Second is to sell it and keep looking out for the TMCC model, which is still out there.  Third, which is probably the worst, is to buy a whole new ERR setup for it, which will now cost more than this engine did.

I know which way I am leaning - so I am asking everybody the famous: "What would you do in this case?"

Why don't you at least put a "Wanted to Buy" listing on the OGR board.  There are a lot of parts hoarders out there that may just have one.

ERR is my back up plan. When/if that runs out, Blunami is my plan.

@Dave_C is onto something with the non powered unit. I had planned to upgrade an old conventional Lionel locomotive so I can run it with the LC+2.0 version. I discovered that the old can motor wouldn't work well with the modern motors regardless of ERR, LC+2.0, Legacy, etc. It just wasn't going to work. That loco is the first one I ever bought with my own money so I wanted to use it. It's scheduled to become a non powered unit.

Unless there is some unique aspect of the unit that is important to you, I'd sell it and buy the TMCC version.

In the longer term, the lack of replacement/upgrade parts is an issue that we will have to deal with.  Those who can will probably switch to Blunami or RC/dead-rail options, and the rest of us will be running conventional.  Not a great situation for people who have a lot of engines.

First rule when buying used site unseen is assume it doesn't work and factor the price of making it work again into your offer. Parts are out there to make it run again, maybe even better than original, just not exactly with what it came with in the case of Lionel.

Pete

@Homey B posted:

I looked at the Lionel Support site and found that while the RailSounds module is available (and you don't need the TMCC interface to make it work), the actual TMCC logic as well as the couplers are no longer made/supported.  Which, if you ask me, sucks.

Drop me a line, I have the R2LC boards you need for TMCC.  I also have Railsounds and generic power supply boards.

This chip situation is not going to last forever. A couple years from now things will look different.

@ChiTown Steve posted:

This chip situation is not going to last forever. A couple years from now things will look different.

I'm not sure that will change the TMCC electronics situation, they're not going to start making those again.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not sure that will change the TMCC electronics situation, they're not going to start making those again.

Could be. I would hope Lionel would want to support their products better than that though.

@ChiTown Steve posted:

Could be. I would hope Lionel would want to support their products better than that though.

I'm sorry but you are funny.  Lionel purged all TMCC and first generation Legacy electronics from stock a week before the 50% sale last year.  Sept 2022.  Also since 2018/19 they have not been posting new engine diagrams with parts lists.  So what does that tell you about Lionel support for past products, outside the one year warranty????

@ChiTown Steve posted:

Could be. I would hope Lionel would want to support their products better than that though.

I think that's wishful thinking.  They removed all of the boards from the site at once, clearly they weren't out of all of them at the same time.  Given that fact, I can't imagine they'd start making new TMCC boards when they deep-sixed those and declared them obsolete.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think that's wishful thinking.  They removed all of the boards from the site at once, clearly they weren't out of all of them at the same time.  Given that fact, I can't imagine they'd start making new TMCC boards when they deep-sixed those and declared them obsolete.

I’m not suggesting they recreate the old boards. Instead come up with a replacement board of some type. Thar way their customers aren’t throwing engines in the garbage.

@ChiTown Steve posted:

I’m not suggesting they recreate the old boards. Instead come up with a replacement board of some type. Thar way their customers aren’t throwing engines in the garbage.

I think they're a lot more interested in selling new locomotives and not so much fixing old ones.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think they're a lot more interested in selling new locomotives and not so much fixing old ones.

If that is the case and seems it is then why would any potential consumer fork over hundreds of dollars for something that may well become a paperweight? 

@necrails posted:

If that is the case and seems it is then why would any potential consumer fork over hundreds of dollars for something that may well become a paperweight?

If you can come up with a different explanation for them removing all the TMCC and early Legacy electronics from the parts site in one shot, I'm all ears.   If you have a failure of TMCC or early Legacy before 2010, you're out of luck at Lionel parts.

In typical Lionel fashion, the upgrade boards they made for those upgrade-able trains didn't fit the engines. I bought an Lionel Atlantic from the 2000 catalog and purchased an upgrade board. It didn't fit. I had to buy another board to make everything work. You are better off getting an ERR board from Third Rail.

Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

In typical Lionel fashion, the upgrade boards they made for those upgrade-able trains didn't fit the engines. I bought an Lionel Atlantic from the 2000 catalog and purchased an upgrade board. It didn't fit. I had to buy another board to make everything work. You are better off getting an ERR board from Third Rail.

Scott Smith

Since the "upgrade" boards were the standard R2LC and Railsounds boards, exactly what didn't fit?  The R2LC is exactly the same size as the ERR R4LC, and is functionally the same.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since the "upgrade" boards were the standard R2LC and Railsounds boards, exactly what didn't fit?  The R2LC is exactly the same size as the ERR R4LC, and is functionally the same.

This has been 20 years ago. My dealer ordered the board and they didn't fit. The dealer was going to install it. He contacted Lionel and they said they knew it didn't work. The command ready board was not so command ready. So exactly how they didn't fit I really don't know.

Has anyone out there actually installed one of these command ready boards that worked?

Scott Smith

My Lionel 6-18084 Santa Fe Hudson was a command ready unit. A couple of months after I bought it off the bay I went to the lionel site and found that they still had the upgrade kit to add TMCC and railsounds in stock for half the price of a ERR set. I ordered them and when they arrived they plugged right in to the motherboard (after removing the signal sounds board). Probably the easiest upgrade I've done and 2 years later still runs like a champ! As always YMMV.

@scott.smith posted:

This has been 20 years ago. My dealer ordered the board and they didn't fit. The dealer was going to install it. He contacted Lionel and they said they knew it didn't work. The command ready board was not so command ready. So exactly how they didn't fit I really don't know.

Has anyone out there actually installed one of these command ready boards that worked?

Scott Smith

I've installed the boards in a number of "command ready" engines, most went according to the script.  Oddly, the K-Line stuff that was advertised as "command ready" was anything but!

I’m not suggesting they recreate the old boards. Instead come up with a replacement board of some type. Thar way their customers aren’t throwing engines in the garbage.

Umm… Lionel wants to sell product, their new high-priced engines. They don’t want you to fix your older, past, more reliable engines that are about 20 plus years old.
With a flick of the switch on a given day, they obsoleted all their TMCC engines and took all their boards off the parts list and will not sell you a board that you might need. Yes, you can buy proto 3 boards and convert an engine.
But, Lionel is more interested in deflating your wallet with their products. They will NEVER produce a replacement board for product they might have in their warehouse and that stuff they will not sell you.
Keep dreamin’ about new replacement board.  

@Ted Bertiger posted:

I’m not suggesting they recreate the old boards. Instead come up with a replacement board of some type. Thar way their customers aren’t throwing engines in the garbage.

Umm… Lionel wants to sell product, their new high-priced engines. They don’t want you to fix your older, past, more reliable engines that are about 20 plus years old.
With a flick of the switch on a given day, they obsoleted all their TMCC engines and took all their boards off the parts list and will not sell you a board that you might need. Yes, you can buy proto 3 boards and convert an engine.
But, Lionel is more interested in deflating your wallet with their products. They will NEVER produce a replacement board for product they might have in their warehouse and that stuff they will not sell you.
Keep dreamin’ about new replacement board.  

There's a bit of an issue with Lionel creating a drop-in replacement TMCC board, and it's not really to do with wanting to sell a new locomotive per se. Lionel used several different styles and configurations of boards during the TMCC era. They can't make a drop in board that covers all the styles and configurations of TMCC boards they used. Even the Legacy era has three different styles of boards.

Contrast that with MTH. In the PS2 era (both 5V and 3V) the boards were identical in configuration across all locomotives, minus different style connectors between the 5V and 3V boards. This allowed MTH to develop a drop in replacement board (the PS32 board, based off the PS3 diesel board) that replaces a failed PS2 board with minimal fuss. Since Lionel didn't have a standardized board for every TMCC locomotive it's basically impossible for them to offer a standardized replacement. 

@Lou1985 posted:

There's a bit of an issue with Lionel creating a drop-in replacement TMCC board, and it's not really to do with wanting to sell a new locomotive per se. Lionel used several different styles and configurations of boards during the TMCC era. They can't make a drop in board that covers all the styles and configurations of TMCC boards they used. Even the Legacy era has three different styles of boards.

Well, I think that's perhaps overstating the issue.  Yes, MTH had an easier time making the replacements due to the fact that the architecture didn't change from the original design.  However, even the MTH boards don't cover all the bases for replacement, any steamer with MUX boards, for instance, doesn't have a drop-in replacement if a MUX board fails.  Also, for some units, the PS32 board doesn't fit without significant wiring adjustments.

If there was a replacement for the Legacy R4LC, it would cover a vast majority of all the TMCC & early Legacy TMCC needs.  The Legacy R4LC can be programmed for TMCC use and mimics the widely used R2LC-C08 board.  The R2LC-C08 was used or is compatible with probably at least 90% of all the products that used the various versions of the R2LC.  Lionel still owns the rights to the ERR Cruise Commander, so they could produce those to replace motor driver boards.  There is also a Legacy version of the back-EMF board (Cruise Commander) that would solve many of the early Legacy locomotive motor driver failures, I've personally used them.  It's very simple to graft the TMCC version of the Railsounds-Lite board to replace the two board power and audio board for Railsounds 4 & 5, and the Legacy version for Railsounds 5.5 & 6.0.

The situation isn't as impossible as you might think, however the desire to support the old product just doesn't exist!

Let’s face it I understand about the complaint about not supporting product. But we built this world ourselves. When warrantees were better, especially MTH. There were many people in this Hobby that abused it. Instead of not buying Lionel product or whoever they continue to line up and fork over thousands of dollars For what amounts to the next paperweight, so why should Lionel change. They know their customer base most guys never even take the engines out of the box. I’ve complained about this for years and I’ve been told by many people on this forum deal with it. I do I don’t buy brand new Lionel products, or anybody anymore, I like rebuilding the old stuff it’s mine, and it works.

Back to the original question, I agree with some others that the best thing to do is sell your "command ready" version and purchase the TMCC-equipped version. It's the simplest and cheapest alternative. Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, Lionel marketed upgrade kits, which were simple replacement boards that snapped in where the previous board was and provided conversion to TMCC. I installed one of those once - extremely simple, about a 5 minute job. I still have one of those kits lying around somewhere.

I agree with those who say Lionel has a low interest in providing the means to keep their engines running forever. No doubt they determined this isn't a survivable business model for them. So they're not in the rebuild business, but, as others have also said, they're in the new train sales business.

These older upgradeable engines are relatively inexpensive engines (especially compared to today's models), so if they fail in the future, financially it's not the end of the world. Also, if a particular road name engine isn't available in a TMCC version, there are lots of TMCC-equipped versions around with the same chassis, so the option is always there to buy one and swap shells if you have a road name you want to keep. Very easy job.

Also, with respect to concern about future repair of the electronics in these type engines, none of my TMCC engines has ever failed. The electronics seem pretty robust.

Honestly? Just move to HO scale. All the digital equipment is standardized and the businesses involved actually act like they care about their customers. Prices are far lower and everything works better.

For the price of one old lionel loco, you can get a HO model from about the same time. It'll have the same charm, but it'll cost far less. I have a half dozen HO locomotives, even ones with sound and DCC, for the price of 2 modern lionel locos.

Some HO locos go for like 5$ and with basic soldering you can get a DCC board in there and maybe even a little speaker if you put some work in. And if it breaks, there are dozens of companies offering replacements!

I can't recommend it enough.

HO is nice. O is bigger and easier to see and hear .  Each to his own, but when your eyesight isn't what it was, O has lots to recommend it, in particular.

@John m 43 posted:

Honestly? Just move to HO scale. All the digital equipment is standardized and the businesses involved actually act like they care about their customers. Prices are far lower and everything works better.

For the price of one old lionel loco, you can get a HO model from about the same time. It'll have the same charm, but it'll cost far less. I have a half dozen HO locomotives, even ones with sound and DCC, for the price of 2 modern lionel locos.

Some HO locos go for like 5$ and with basic soldering you can get a DCC board in there and maybe even a little speaker if you put some work in. And if it breaks, there are dozens of companies offering replacements!

I can't recommend it enough.

That's the reason I'm leaving O scale. No parts no support. Yes O is bigger easier to see but what good is that when you can't get parts?  The H O guy's don't complain much about their stuff not working out of the box or later down the road  because they don't have these problems.

I have had virtually no out of box failures with O gauge stuff in the last 25-30 years (knocks on wood ).  One thing to realize about HO is that modern sound and DCC being widespread is fairly recent (last 10-15 years at most), so I wouldn't count on parts for Rapido, BLI, etc. locos being available in the future any more than for O gauge.  Decoders for DCC and sound are likely to be available from secondary suppliers, it is true, and that is not so for PS3, DCS, Legacy in general.

Abandoning O-gauge and switching to HO is a non-starter for me, and I suspect the vast majority of folks here!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Abandoning O-gauge and switching to HO is a non-starter for me, and I suspect the vast majority of folks here!

I'll agree with that. Lionel obsoleting  all those parts was the last straw for me. I have many of those engines.

@feet posted:

I'll agree with that. Lionel obsoleting  all those parts was the last straw for me. I have many of those engines.

With all us repair folks with stock of most of the parts, those engines still have years of life left.

By all means do whatever makes you happiest.  But if you, or anyone wants to remain in O scale, there are plenty of alternatives.  A total ERR upgrade.  Blunami, CVP Products (AirWire), Ring Engineering's RailPro.  Any of these will get decent performance out of a can-motored loco, and provide independent control on a TMCC layout.  (The latter three couldn't be part of a lashup.)  If you're willing to convert your whole layout and abandon TMCC altogether, there's DCC which is exactly what you would have to do in HO scale.  Except in O, it's probably easier for aging eyes to install the decoder.

The one thing all of these options have in common is a cost.  If the "finished product" (a fully-featured command control loco) is worth, say, $500, and the upgrade costs maybe $450 (or $300 in parts if you do it yourself), then the market value of a first-generation loco with dysfunctional electronics (or no electronics) would be somewhere between $50 and $200.

If you can live without command control, a Dallee E-unit costs $60 (and there might be cheaper alternatives.)  If a working conventional loco is worth $200, then the pre-owned train is still worth about $140.  If sellers are asking more, walk away.  IMO, greedy people who hoarded modern trains and are now trying to make a profit deserve to stew in their own juices!

My suggestions address electronics upgrades, which is how this thread began.  If "hard parts" (gears, drive rods, etc.) are also unavailable, you're taking a different kind of risk.  If the price is right, you could still buy the loco and enjoy it while it lasts.  In the immortal words of Mr. Brady, Caveat emptor!

I've installed several of these kits . 6-22960, 6-22963. Yes, they were " Command ready ", & " Rail Sounds upgradeable" but for the $$ ( back then ) they were , bland in sounds .  And the TMCC boards do enhance smoke output , but outside of that? My advice would be running it in conventional until it bores you to madness , then sell .  An addendum : Be aware that yes, there are TMCC versions out there , they are running in the neighborhood of $250.00-$350.00 range. These are fine locos ( IMO), and represent an early genesis of TMCC . 🚂😀

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Abandoning O-gauge and switching to HO is a non-starter for me, and I suspect the vast majority of folks here!

Probably true.  I've dipped my toe into HO as a result of participating in some local operating sessions (which I strongly recommend!), but I'm in too deep and I also like postwar and MPC traditional trains and accessories.  Unfortunately, HO equipment, especially engines, no longer has the price advantage over O that it once had - DCC HO engines now run $250-600.

Yep, I just looked up some Kato DCC with sound diesels, $400/ea!   The larger steam is knocking on the door to a grand!

I think the original poster has to start with an honest assessment of what he wants.  If he wants a modern, command control locomotive, then frankly, the easiest and likely most cost efficient route is to buy that locomotive new, or near new, in the configuration that you want it.  We are now long past the days when command control modifications (irrespective of whether they are Lionel TMCC or DCS)  are cost effective.  That is not Lionel's, MTH's, or anyone else's fault, it is just the nature of the economic time that we live in.  If you want to buy a loco from the 1990s that is command control, the price needs to reflect the cost risk associated with repairs or upgrades.  Otherwise, like the late and great Marty Fitzhenry told me, it is an "eBay queen."  

Secondarily, to the never ending debate of what will happen when command control locomotives die and there are no original boards to replace, I have two responses:  Firrst, knock on wood, my command control locomotives (whether Lionel or MTH) have been very reliable.  In the past two-three years, I have done some repairs on early (around 1998) Lionel TMCC locomotives.  One sound unit failed, likely because I was using a ZW transformer at the time with no additional short-circuit protection, and another had a general command control failure (which turned out to be a bad ground wire). My MTH stuff is newer but generally reliable (but more like a windows PC requiring some "rebooting" once in a while.   In sum, this is 25+ years of service before a problem with the Lionel locos, and when such problems occurred, they were minor.  (2) Second, if they die, and the failure is more "catastrophic" (we are talking toy trains here after all, so by definition there are no serious problems), the option at that point will be to upgrade to whatever is then the new standard or relegate it to shelf queen status.  Is that really any different to how many hobbyists treat post war pieces or early TMCC / command control locomotives?  I know we have postwar enthusiasts even today (I always see the one guy at York who has the super mint postwar stuff, priced accordingly, but apparently really likes bringing it and packing it up every 6 months), but how many hobbyists are really still running those locomotives, after running the newer offerings?  I love my postwar stuff, will never get rid of it, but the reality is that operationally it is inferior to the command control locomotives.  

In sort, the sky is not falling, and this is a hobby that is a great deal of fun.  And to those of you who like HO, I say that is great, HO is nice, but to me it is less visually impressive than O gauge and I will be sticking with O gauge.  The fear of not being able to fix something years down the road will not ruin that fun.  At some point, everything of this world will break, it's just reality.  

Have a great weekend everyone.  I'll be raking and mulching leaves, and then enjoying the trains with a glass of wine.  

@ChiTown Steve posted:

I’m not suggesting they recreate the old boards. Instead come up with a replacement board of some type. Thar way their customers aren’t throwing engines in the garbage.

You hit the big Canary in the room. Lionel could care less, in HO companies want you back and support their equipment for many many years. People will also tell you it is what it is……….if people stopped shelling out 2 grand and more for what will be the next door stop Lionel will take note…this will never happen.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, I just looked up some Kato DCC with sound diesels, $400/ea!   The larger steam is knocking on the door to a grand!

But they support the equipment for years not months.