Question about adding some sort of temperature or resettable breaker to post-war locomotive

Did you do general maintenance - clean out the old grease then oil and grease where appropriate, and cleaning the brushes?

Are the axles on the cars properly lubricated?

Yes, to all.  The loco had just been completely disassembled and serviced.   Every car had recently been lubricated.  I don't think it is a maintenance issue, but it certainly is possible.  I can't rule that out, but I just finished doing a PM on all of my rolling stock a few weeks ago.

Scott

How are the carbon brushes? Here is the parts diagram:

https://www.trainz.com/pages/p...-diesel?diagramId=16

One more thought on the original question, once you find out what happened a PTC might be an option but they come with compromises too.  this is a good introduction to them:

@AlliesDad posted:

Any thoughts on what I might could add to prevent overheating like this?  By the way, it did not overheat to the point of deforming the shell.   That is still in pristine condition.  Just both motors.  PTCs can go in the engine Or between track power and track.

Thoughts anyone?

Scott

PTC Resettable Fuses - Auto reset after fault is cleared.  See my Circuit Protection web page that covers my Run Room protection.

Thank you very much!  I am a EE (PhD) and should have thought of that, but honestly, it has been SO long since I did circuit design that I did not even think of that.  I think putting a self-resettable circuit breaker on the track input to the locomotive (especially these very old post-war F3 model) is probably the right thing to do.  A post-mortem on the locomotive in question showed a severally melted front motor, partially melted rear motor, although both motors still turn and may still work, and severally melted wiring between the two motors and the e-unit.  Surprisingly, no melting of the single wire from the track pick-up in the front to the e-unit.  I would have expected that to have either melted or become a fuse by default.  But, it did not.  I have the parts on order to repair it, but it is my belief that I simply was pulling to much of a load, even though all cars were maintained.  Normally, for this consist, I use two powered "A" F3 units to do the grunt work, but this time, I had just finished repainting this unit and only had the one powered A out of the ABA combination.

Now, the issue will be to determine the correct sized breaker that trips when needed, but not excessively during startup and or curves.  I have Fluke multimeter that can measure current and a Fluke clamp on current meter, but I am not real sure how I am going to take those measurements while the train is moving.  Perhaps measuring at the transformer will be sufficient, since there a no other loads on that track other than two LED lights (in the unpowered A and the caboose).  That might be sufficient to give me the "peak" current and then add a slight factor to that so that it does not randomly trip.

Thank you for the great website.  I looked over it and am very impressed.  You have taken a lot of time in planning and designing (apparently) before you began to lay the first boards.

Scott

Allen, TX

@hokie71 posted:

How are the carbon brushes? Here is the parts diagram:

https://www.trainz.com/pages/p...-diesel?diagramId=16

When I mentioned that I did a thorough disassembly and cleaning of the entire locomotive, that included taking both motors completely apart, cleaning them of built up "gunk", cleaning all contacts and brushes.  I re-oiled both motors with lightweight oil specifically for model train (forget the brand; maybe Labelle or something like that?).  I oiled the motor gears and the wheelset gearing assembly.  Both of the rolled very freely when finished.  I must say, this only happened after the train had been going for about an hour and a half with just the one locomotive.  Normally, I put two powered A's on it, but this time, I only had the one in this particular paint scheme.  I suspect user error, here.  I should have known better than to run it that long with only one locomotive.  But, live and learn.  Fortunatley, nothing caught fire (although I was afraid the smoke alarms were going to go off).  Thanks again for all the great ideas.  I really think I had the maintenance covered, mainly because I had just assembled this unit.  I had just repainted the shells of these units and was checking the locomotive out.  Now, I know.  It takes two locos for this train.  Here is a link with my two powered A's Santa Fe's pulling the same consist.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1EN8XqTgvH/

And to answer the question, yes all of the photos in the media room are mine.  Taken in Wyoming and Montana (for the most part) and printed on my own 44" printer in my home office.  Another hobby of mine.  I have discovered that at my age, hobbies are becoming more and more expensive, just when the budget is declining!

Scott

@hokie71 posted:

One more thought on the original question, once you find out what happened a PTC might be an option but they come with compromises too.  this is a good introduction to them:

Really interesting stuff - thanks for posting.  I was surprised by how much current either of those would pass before tripping and how long it took - a couple of seconds is an eternity.

Another takeaway is to not let trains run unattended.  I've had a train run flawlessly 20 times around the layout and then derail on the 21st time when I turn my back.  And trains can sense when visitors are present and when they're unsupervised.

I suppose unattended would be the correct term.  It was in the media room and I was in the next room, listening to it and that was when I began to smell the smell of burning wire.  I was really trying to let the new loco works itself in.  I guess it did.

I still don't know what happened, exactly.  Post-mortem on the locomotive (a refurbished and recently serviced 2343 frame and motors) shows the front horizontal motor to have WAY overheated.  To the extent that the middle housing, where the core and wire windings are, melted on the sides.  I am tossing that motor.  Interestingly, the rear motor did NOT suffer any kind of damage and the singular wire from the track pickup was completely undamaged.  But, it did appear that the front motor froze and continuous contact was being made between the brushes and the armature.   That was evident from the burn marks on both the brushes and the armature.  I am extremely surprised that the primary wire from the track pickup not only did not become a fuse, it did not even show signs of overheating.  I have not replaced that motor yet or put the frame back into service.  I want to completely disassemble the geared wheelsets (front and back), clean and lube those and then replace the front motor and then service the rear motor.  I am still looking for PTCs from either Mouser or Digikey, but don't need them in the quantity that they want to sell.  I may have to go the eBay route to obtain what I need to prevent over-current from occurring again within the locomotive.  I know that these are 50's locos, but I am a bit surprised that there is not over-heat or over-current protection of any kind.  Oh, well.  Live and learn.  Thanks for all the help.

Scott

Allen, TX

I love the old stuff, the postwar engines and such. That is why I keep them on shelves under glass.

That's where they belong IMHO.

Collectibles not use-ables.

I know there are many that disagree, but with today's electronics and finer details, I just don't find a need to run the old stuff. . . for very long.

And you are certainly welcome to your opinion.  However, it is the old stuff that got me into the hobby and repairing / maintaining it is what keeps me in it.  I find it relaxing to take apart a 1950 locomotive and completely rebuild it.  I enjoy taking old, readily available Santa Fe shells and turning them into my own.  Some photos of my take on some of Lionel's F3 are attached.  It was certainly unfortunate that a motor burned up, but certainly not catastrophic.  The cost to repair a 1950 EMD F3 is significantly lower than that to replace some of the fancier locomotives that have sounds and stuff  that not only will I not use, I don't want.  I just enjoy the sound of the growling of the motors and the clickety-clack of the cars going around and around.  I can get that thrill from my old stuff, just as easily as I can with the new.  And, when I want to modify a car or locomotive, I don't have to worry about what I am doing to the resale value.  I do what I want to my trains because they bring me joy, at a time in my life when joy has been missing for a long time.

Scott

Hi for you're info it would be safer to have to lower of a current setting for the PTC fuse won't burn anything up where as to high of a current setting would definately fry your winding. so best to use the lower PCT fuse so if you need a 2 amp PTC TRY a 1 amp first if your train does not run or you're pulling to many cars it won't hurt anything, then if you need more amps slowly increase by 1 amp at a time, PS don't exceed the AMP ratting of the motor or coils involved!

hope this Helps, i always use PTC fuses epecially on electronic engine like MTH OR LIONEL!

Alan

Hi Scott,    I've been researching PTC's and learned so much from this post.  Thanks for starting it and sharing your incident.  I really liked your note about using your post-war engines and the joy it brings. I have many memories of my dad and brothers enjoying our trains and I'm just getting back to the hobby. I'm trying to learn about the new stuff but as I age, it becomes harder and harder.  That's why I'm still running my older engines as well and mixing in some TMCC stuff.    Bob

@Corvette Rob posted:

Hi Scott,    I've been researching PTC's and learned so much from this post.  Thanks for starting it and sharing your incident.  I really liked your note about using your post-war engines and the joy it brings. I have many memories of my dad and brothers enjoying our trains and I'm just getting back to the hobby. I'm trying to learn about the new stuff but as I age, it becomes harder and harder.  That's why I'm still running my older engines as well and mixing in some TMCC stuff.    Bob

I'm glad to hear that it made a difference to someone.  To me, it is much more enjoyable to "build" your own setup, than to just go out and buy it.  I prefer to do the former.  We lost our son in a traffic accident five years ago and I have been searching for just about anything that will be some kind of joy back into life.  This helps do it for me.  It's not a panacea, but, when I am immersed in working on my trains, I don't think about other things in my life.

Scott