Question about sound loudness levels in/around locomotives

bigkid posted:

My wife and I were walking one of the many rail to trails that exist in Northern NJ (in this case, part of the old Sussex Branch of the DL&W, highly recommended even though little remains of the trains that once ran there). At one part of the section we were walking on the roadbed went through a deep rock cut, that was pretty snug up on the tracks, and it made me wonder how loud it was in the cab of either a steam or diesel engine going through that cut, must have been pretty loud..

So I guess my question is, how loud was it in the cab of a typical steam engine or diesel in normal running, and how loud was it in a cut

Very loud!

or tunnel?

UNBELIEVABLY LOUD!!!!!!!!

Besides loud I mean

Even with the cab all closed up on a steam locomotive, it is still LOUD!!!!!!!

Continuing from Hot Water's answer:

. . .  and when walking through the engine room of a diesel locomotive when it is in Run-8 and under load, it is so loud that you must talk directly into the ear of another person.  In the cab of an older diesel, such as an F7, in Run-8, it's necessary to practically shout across the cab, and, of course, louder when inside a tunnel.

On steam locomotives, because of the noise, conversation could be similarly difficult, which is the reason that Engineers and Firemen communicated with each other with hand signals for most things such as communicating and acknowledging the aspects of signals, or communicating when the rear of the train was past a speed restriction, etc.  Examples:

• Arm extended straight ahead = red aspect
• Arm extended straight ahead with elbow bent 45 degrees upward = yellow aspect
• Arm extended straight ahead with elbow bent 90 degrees upward = green aspect 

Also, on oil-fired steam engines, the Engineer would use hand signals to advise the Fireman that he was preparing to make a significant change to the throttle position, as the Fireman had to adjust the fire correspondingly.

Even on a  small steam engine, the noise level can be very loud, especially going all out say, up a grade, with the exhaust, injectors when they run, whistle right next to the cab, bell, the atomizer and the sound of the fire. Yelling to communicate is a constant.

Does anyone know if dB level within a locomotive cab has an OSHA max dB limit. Are cab employees required to be furnished ear protection? Are there yearly hearing tests required by all those working in the cab of locomotives?

None of the above, that I know of.

One of our young student firemen whom I was training insisted on wearing earplugs. Unfortunately, using them, he could not hear my instructions. I told him he needed to remove them if he wanted to continue his training.

With diesels, it varies.  Older power such as SD40’s are extremely loud in the upper throttle notches.  Isolated “whisper” cabs, like those on EMD SD60I units, are much quieter.  It’s possible to have a nearly normal conversation in run 8.  

My youngest son is an NS conductor and they are required to wear hearing protection. 

Curt

Huh?

Hearing?

Gonna' haf' to speak up... cain't hear in one ear an' deaf in the other.

A result of the joys of railroading, hot rodding, model airplane glow engines, playing rock music, etc, etc. Seems most of the things I enjoyed/did was loud.

Paying the price now. (Tinnitus, frequency losses, and such.) Tried to protect my remaining hearing as best I could for the past 11 years or so I was railroading... but it's all taken its toll.

The railroads didn't get serious about hearing protection until the post-WW2 guys and the baby boomers begin to retire with certifiable hearing loss, and began to win lawsuits for same. Now you have to pass mandatory vision/hearing prior to employment, then be tested every three years until the age of 50, wherein the hearing test goes up to once a year. Railroading extracts a lot out of you.

IMHO, your body is like a tape recorder:

* The first 40 years it's in record mode.

* The second 40 years it's in playback mode with ever increasing intensity.

Those of you in loud environs: Save what you can of your hearing using any company provided hearing protection or your own protection.

Andre

My only experience in the cab of a steam locomotive was when I bought a cab pass to ride CN 3254 on the final run from Moscow to Scranton under the auspices of the old Steamtown Foundation (Pre-NPS). It was very loud in there, especially when passing through the Nay Aug Tunnel and some of the rock cuts. In addition, that old Mike felt like she had square wheels. She rode extremely hard, even at the 25 MPH speed limit that existed at the time. I've since read that she suffered frame damage sometime in her career and has been a real rough rider ever since.

I rode behind C&O 614 on a couple of her NJ Transit excursions. I was in the open car "Sound and Fury" coupled behind the auxiliary tender when she climbed Shawangunk  Mountain out of Port Jervis and passed through the Otisville tunnel. Even being back at least 150 feet from her stack, the sound was extremely loud. 

Locomotives vary quite a bit in their sound output. The two locomotives with the loudest bark that I've been around were BM&N 425 and Frisco 1522, with the edge going to the 1522. 

Let's see, real RRers "shout teach" with no ear protection but model RRers can use two-way head sets..........

Noise damage is cumulative, not reversible.

Ear protection can reduce distinctive sounds and still allow ability to monitor mechanism sounds.

With ear protection I could sit next to open headers and  still hear a rod go bad.  Ear protection only attenuates decibels, doesn't eliminate them.

the short line i work on is all Alco , having a hearing conservation program  is part of the FRA requirements for all railroads. most railroads require hearing protection and have an outside contractor to monitor it ,all train crews are tested every three years and it is compared against a base line taken at pre- employment. that said on board testing has shown that our cabs are quite enough that we do not need hearing protection per the program but are loud enough we have to offer hearing protection (our company policy requires them).  about ten years ago it became a requirement to vent all the air from the brake stands out of the cab and that lowered the noise level in the cab. today its the horns that are the offenders. as for not being able to operate a locomotive because of ear plug use that just is not true if you are using the properly rated ones for the job normal conversation is not a problem and only the offending noises are reduced. stock ear protection from a home repair store are made for jack hammering and other very loud noises. and OSHA can but does not get involved in Railroad safety just the FRA . hope this helps and was not to much info. Rick

Kelly:

It appears to be covered in the following:

49 CFR Part 227 - Occupational Noise Exposure for Railroad Operating Employees

49 CFR Part 229.121 - Locomotive Cab Noise Standard

Curt

Tom Tee posted:

Let's see, real RRers "shout teach" with no ear protection but model RRers can use two-way head sets..........

There were no such devices for cab crew members, back in the steam days.

Noise damage is cumulative, not reversible.

I have had temporary hearing "loss" in my left ear from firing on 4449 during the very long 1984 New Orleans Worlds Fair Daylight trip. Some months after the trip was over, I had normal hearing again in my left ear, i.e. no "loss" nor ringing.

Ear protection can reduce distinctive sounds and still allow ability to monitor mechanism sounds.

Not in my opinion, when listening carefully to to the exhaust and machinery sounds.

With ear protection I could sit next to open headers and  still hear a rod go bad. 

Not surprising when a rod lets go. Such "noise" is NOT what we listen for when operating a high horsepower, main line steam locomotive.

Ear protection only attenuates decibels, doesn't eliminate them.

I suppose that's your opinion.

 

Tom Tee posted:

Ear protection can reduce distinctive sounds and still allow ability to monitor mechanism sounds.

I'm guessing you've never fired a steam locomotive? So you probably can't tell us what the exhaust sounds like when the engine is working water, or when the engineer notches up?

The critical statements shared above I accept as subjective input.  It is not my intention to refute opinion. 

Our family has experienced a considerable amount of hearing loss and have been receiving medical treatment for over a decade. 

I only shared that which we have learned over  the years.

As far as a bad rod issue I was only referring to the sound of too much journal clearance, aka "rod knock". 

When a rod lets go as noted above one needs no hearing ability what so ever.  A thrown rod typically locks up an engine, freezing the drive line, locking the propeller in one position and promptly flips the boat usually at speeds well over 100 mph.  Frequently a fatal event.

It is correct I have no operating experience in a RR locomotive.  I was only trying to impart audio information I received from professional medical experts over the years.  To be used as applicable.

If you check carefully you will find ear protection is available in different formats depending on the range you needed attenuated. 

Inquiring minds will discover there is more to this subject than just a Parthian Shot.

I apologize for trying to share insight learned.  Never expected this level of response from multiple sources.  

I work under the premise that a man's responsibility is to "pass it forward" in sharing  accurate information.  Sorry I interfered with the collective consensus. 

Good day.......

TOM TEE,

Your comments and input just do not apply to steam locomotive operation, from either "back in the day" or to current operations. I have been involved with in-cab operations, as Fireman and relief Engineer, on main line steam locomotives such as SP 4449, UP 844 and UP 3985, for over 40+ years. Yes, I occasionally has "hissing" in my ears, but I more attribute THAT to some 18 months assigned to the Headquarters, Division Artillery, 2nd Armored Division, from mid 1965 thru late 1966, as the commanding officer's personal driver. There is nothing like an 8" self propelled howitzer to clear one's mind!

UP 6936 is LOUD.  AT IDLE.  AND SPARKS DO COME OUT OF HER STACKS!  UP still has her?