Question for Hot Water CB&Q Steam operations late 50s thru late 60s

When I clicked on the two links you provided, the first one didn't work right, and the second one showed all sorts of photos with appropriate information beside each photo.

Generally that rail pictures site does provide information about each photo.

Short answer.  For several years in the 1960s, the CB&Q ran their own steam program with 4-8-4 #5632 and 2-8-2 #4960.  A change in management quickly ended that adventure.

Kevin

Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was all excursions or revenue. What threw me was pics of the engines pulling freight after 1960.

Hot Water Yes the pic had comments but it was the pics with freight that had me wondering just when CBQ finally stopped revenue service , yard and transfer service with steam

Doug

Suzu:  Just wanted to comment on those two engines that were mentioned above.  The #5632 was cut up in the early 1980's, a true travesty that such an important engine bit the dust so recently.  Dick Jensen, who also owned one of my favorite excursion steam engines, the GTW #5629, a beautiful, USRA Pacific was also owned by him and was cut up in about 1986. 

 A Burlington 4-8-4, sister engine to the #5632, coincidentally numbered #5629 does remain at the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden, CO, although it does not operate.

The #4960 Mikado avoided the scrap line and was eventually purchased by the Grand Canyon Railroad, had it's appearance changed significantly, and operates on rare occasions on that line, to this day.

Paul Fischer

Doug,

What really muddies the water, so to speak, with the CB&Q "excursions" was, many a trip was made with #4960, and probably even #5632, in mixed freight service as part of an excursion. The 4960 made a lot of mixed freight excursions, even into the early/mid 1960s, with a coach or two on it's freight out of Chicago, and then did pick-ups and set-outs on the branch down to Ottawa, IL (as best as I can remember), all the while the photographers were allowed off to watch the work. When completed, they put their train "back together", with the passenger car/cars most likely on the headend then, and returned to Chicago.

So, even though the CB&Q ended all "regally scheduled, revenue" steam operations in the mid 1950s, or so, those "mixed freight/passenger" excursions into the 1960s were indeed "revenue" but NOT "regularly scheduled" with steam.

The last major steam operation on the CB&Q was in 1956 when several Northern's, some Hudson's and Colorado's(2-10-4's) were recalled from serviceable storage due to a grain rush created by foreign sales due to crop failures in Russia.

4960 was pressed into service in 1965 to pull both freight and passenger trains through an area flooded by the Savanna River to eliminate a two hour detour.

If that particular photo where the link doesn't work has an orange-red New Haven boxcar behind 5632, that was actually a fantrip combined with a local freight.

2-8-0 C&S 638 ran in regular service in the upper altitudes of Colorado until 1962-63 when it was replaced by an SD9.

Rusty

All, Thanks for the answers. I knew Burlington had retired their steam on regular service and had seen pic of steam in yard service 1960ish. I had seen these pics before and had forgot about them. In a way the were smart about it and ran revenue while doing fan trips which no doubt deferred the costs. As for using 4960 to pull trains in the flooded area of the Savanna River. I would think that 4960 would be heavier than a Cab or Hood unit and would be a greater safety risk.  With all the other steam engines that seam to be coming back to life.  I think it would be great to bring back to #5629 to life. I now it is a fantasy but it would be nice to see a couple of mid west road represented in the current rebirth. Now if only UP would get their act together and CSX has a change of heart and backs a steam program.   Life would be great.

Doug

Please be aware that a diesel electric locomotive can NOT negotiate very deep water over the rail because the water would get into the DC traction motors. A steam locomotive however, can operate through water at depths all the way up to its axle bearings, i.e. quite a few feet deep.

Hot water

operational issue, I did not know, that's why I asked.

Doug

Just before ending steam operation, the Colorado & Southern (a Burlington subsidiary) had a head-on collision with a steam powered train and one with a diesel.  If anyone has details, would you be kind enough to post them?

I remember pictures of 3985 going through the 1993 floods with time-critical freight. How deep was that water? It looked at least waist-deep on the workers who were checking the tracks.

Can you be a little more specific as to where that would have occurred? I do remember one trip when the Missouri River was REALLY HIGH, and the former Missouri Pacific line along the river, enroute to Kansas City, was under water in some spots. The water was only a few inches over the rail head, but we had to take it VERY slow, in order to insure that there was still ballast underneath us. That was with a passenger train, however and not freight.

It would seem that there was a LOT less concern about liability back then!  How did they determine that the submerged track would even support a train?

The freight pictures cited above were probably from the RR Club of Chicago's way freight fan trips, that went up to Oregon, IL, and with 2-8-2 4960 on the branch to Mt. Morris and Cable Printing. They actually did a bit of pick up/setout business on these trips. Believe 4-8-4 5632 was too heavy to go up to Mt. Morris. I had the good fortune to ride the 1960 version of the trip with the 4960.

      The Colorado & Southern experienced two disasterous wrecks in Sept 1958 which required a desperate call to parent CB&Q's headquarters in Chicago due to the destruction of a number of diesels. The Q sent out 5 O1a 2-8-2's to substutute for the diesels. The first wreck was when two diesel powered freights collided head-on at Chugwater, WY. The second was when northbound passenger train #30 collided head-on with freight train #77 at Broomfield, CO. This wreck resulted in the death of engineer Fred Tingle, who started railroading on the South Park narrow gauge in the early part of the century, and two other railroaders. Addtionally the Burlington experienced two wrecks on the Beardstown coal line, which resulted in the use of substituted steam through early 1959. Employed were 5 O1a 2-8-2's and 2-10-4's #6315 and #6318.

        #4960 was used in the Spring of 1965 at Savanna, IL when the Mississippi flooded the Burlington's trackage, shuttling both passenger and freight trains through the flood waters. Subsidiary Fort Worth & Denver loaned a USRA 2-8-2 to the Texas & Pacific for flood duty on the Red River in 1957 and then sold an older 2-8-2 to the T&P for flood duty in 1958; it was used on only one occaision by the T&P after the sale.

      Re Rusty's comment about the Burlington's 1956 use of steam being the product of crop failure in Russia was apochryphal (no disrepect to Rusty). Jim Shaugnessy came up with that explanation in his photo essays of Burlington 4-8-4's taken in Nov 1956. The seasonal operation of Burlington steam was a normally anticpated event on the railroad, which kept about 100 steam locomotives in reserve for the fall rush of wheat and sugar beets. Beyond 1956, Burlington had all 6 of their oil burning 4-8-4's based in Lincoln, NE running in the summer and fall of 1957 (plus 2-8-2's switching). And Fall 1958-early 1959 saw the last use of Burlington steam in regular service - again of locomotives held in reserve for just such occaisions. C&S and FW&D regular steam operation wrapped up in the spring of 1959.

          The CB&Q and it's two subsidiaries were probably the best friends of steam locomotive enthusiasts in terms of the number of steam locomotives employed on fan trips. A total of 25 steam locomotives were used through the years on excursions, starting with stainless steel streamlined 4-6-4 #4000 in 1937!  These locomotives ranged from 4-6-0's, a 4-6-2, a 2-6-2, 2-8-0's, 2-8-2's, 4-6-4's, 4-8-4's, 2-10-2's and a 2-10-4.  Anyone know of any other American railroad that ran as many steam locomotives for the fans?