Question for prototypical operators (switching operations)

I operate on HO and N scale layouts.  All of the equipment on these layouts use Kadee or Kadee like couplers.  All the uncoupling is done by inserting a stick into the Kadee and twisting it.  None of the very prototypical layouts that I operate on use magnets.

I believe that Bob B. has converted his cars to Kadee couplers and uses the same hand methods to uncouple them as the smaller scale folks.  I believe that this was edited out of the video for some reason.  You will note that all the switching in the video occurs within easy reach of the aisle.

When you think about it, all prototype uncoupling is done by hand.  The "scale" operators don't have any problem with hand uncoupling.  

Our large claw couplers are difficult to uncouple both by hand and by electro-magnet.  You really have to anticipate where you want uncoupling to happen to use electro- magnets.  Claw couplers are also very difficult to couple.  I find that I must really bang most of them together.  This causes more derailments than I care to mention.

 Another problem with the claws is that they often fail causing trains to come apart.  Kadee type couplers are much more reliable in my experience.  We operate 100 car HO trains at my club without problems.

I wish that Lionel, MTH and the others would come up with a remote Kadee type coupler in O 3-rail and that all 3-rail equipment came with mounting pads for Kadee type couplers.

NH Joe 

ive changed the couplers to kadee. This way i dont need to crash cars together. everything can be done slowly. We see no issue in the five finger brakeman as it is a hands on operation in real life. Basically "do what you gotta do" operating is fun a chess game of sorts. try it ! conrail john

The newer Lionel couplers seem to require much less force to get a positive "latching" when making a coupling move. However, that doesn't address 90 percent of my rolling stock that still has the traditional claws that sometimes require smashing force to couple.

I don't have a problem with hand / wooden pick coupling as long as that was the initial intention throughout. 
It's when I have to intervene with hand moves when my hope was to rely completely on remote ,electro-mag, etc. that I get frustrated with operations.

Paul,

Here's a 5-minute video I made of me switching on my layout, the "wand" I'm using is a LED flashlight with a wooden skewer attached to it (via some heat shrink tubing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

All my stuff has Kadee couplers and I need the light so I can see in between the cars (or add another ceiling fixture in the room!!!).

The video was to show how my Battery-Powered, Remote-Controlled (BPRC) engines work, but it also shows how I use the wand.

it's fun... but don't make it too complicated, you don't want a operator making up a train in a yard that's going to take 30 minutes or so. Trying to read car numbers is not so easy anymore.

I like over tonnage trains were the crew has to double or get shoved over the hill. Can be tricky with DCS with 2 different crews.

Straight set offs of unit type trains is easy. The crew returns with  engines and caboose. Caboose to van alley and engines to the shop. Of course another crew now has to and get the cars(they were  unloaded or  loaded in less than  10 minutes.)

Having a yard engine waiting for a passenger train to spot a private or business car at the local station.

Oh Yeah... It's more fun with  2 man crews.. One to run the engine and a brakeman to  line switches and do the switching moves. (pull pins,  coupling etc)

I spent about 30 minutes this morning switching cars between industries:

The upper left siding is a wood/lumber facility, the middle upper siding is a fuel oil/chemical industry, the siding on the right is a public delivery track with a depot centered on the 2 switches, and the bottom middle is a siding that goes behind a 6-building downtown area.  The piece of track in the upper right corner serves as a run-around so I can get around cars to get them into their proper siding.  The drop-down Wye bridge gets me access to the main room (there's a wall and stairs at the 88" dimension and a wall at the end of the "Offline" track).

I can perform switching in this area while a train runs the mainline, or move engines in/out of the engine facility at the bottom left while running/looping the main.

This morning I wanted to move an empty boxcar from downtown to the lumber facility for loading.  I also had to move a tankcar form the oil industry to the lumber facility.  Both moves required me moving cars I had to re-spot as I had 2 cars at each location, plus I had to move 3 cars out of the way at the lumber facility to spot the empty boxcar and tankcar where I wanted them.  The run-around track is vital for these moves and makes for a lot of fun.

The track going down the left side is the "Offline" main.  If I ever get the rest of upstairs cleaned out I'm going to run the mainline all the way around upstairs and have a staging yard so I can makeup/tear down trains.  As it is now the 5-fingered crane lifts them off the main on the left and places them on shelves under the layout.

Running the mainline around the entire upstairs will more than double my mainline run, making it almost a scale mile long.

Paul Kallus posted:

"I am curious how many operators strive for prototypical operations:"  I'm am currently rebuilding my layout (again).  It is L shaped and 30' along each backside and 14' wide.  One section is along the wall, the other is an island.  It will be a two level layout with 4 continuous running loops and a hidden staging yard.  I also will have the option for some operations.  The lower level has a coal mine/power plant combination to move loaded and unloaded coal cars, plus an additional industry.  The upper level has a small town type yard with a clear yard lead plus some more industries.  My operating plan will have through freights and passenger trains coming out of the staging yard, dropping off/picking up blocks of cars from the yard, then going back to the staging area.  In the yard the blocks will be broken down in the classification tracks for movement out to the industries.  Cars will come in from the industries and put into blocks for pickup by the next through trains.

"and do you do them by yourself or only in group sessions:"  The entire layout can be controlled via the Cab2, but I also have individual controllers for each switch and uncoupling track along the layout edge near the item they will control.  I have gone through scenarios with the track plan for one person operation, but it would be more fun with more folks so I plan to have other people over to run the trains with me. One or two running the through trains in and out of the staging yard, one or two yard crews, one or two local freight crews, a commuter crew, and a crew working the coal train.  Not sure there are that many interested people in southern Maryland.

"and do you try to accomplish it without the giant hand?"  I have a large box of Atlas and Gargraves uncoupling tracks that I have collected over the years.  I will put one in wherever I think one would be needed but, as mentioned above, using your hand is actually more prototypical so I would have no problems doing that.  To get all the track work I want will require a few switches and an uncoupling tract about 4' from the edge (I probably will get a lot of heat for that from the forum), so these will need to be operated through the controllers.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Paul,

Here's a 5-minute video I made of me switching on my layout, the "wand" I'm using is a LED flashlight with a wooden skewer attached to it (via some heat shrink tubing):

 

Bob,

The skewer with the light is a bright idea.  I am going to make several for myself.  Thanks for sharing the idea and the video.

NH Joe

Well, it looks like I am not alone in giving operations some thought - you guys have some good ideas and plans. I also liked Bob's lighted wand uncoupler.

I wonder if anyone has gone through the efforts of putting electrocouplers on their freight cars...a massive job but once done you could remotely uncouple anywhere - and know each car's ID# according to a manifest or the car's number, although one may need binoculars to read the car #!

I've been having some fun with my Lionel Legacy B6 switcher that has electrocouplers on front and rear. I don't have the space for a freight yard, and so any operations are ad hoc. I like the idea of sidings...but they do take up space which is at a premium - and it usually comes down to a siding or scenery.

Paul Kallus posted:

...and it usually comes down to a siding or scenery.

That is the issue.  My layout plan has been criticized for too much track, not leaving any room for scenery. Well, to get the operational features I want does not leave much empty space.  When I start adding scenery I will have to get creative.  

New Haven Joe posted:

I believe that Bob B. has converted his cars to Kadee couplers and uses the same hand methods to uncouple them as the smaller scale folks.  I believe that this was edited out of the video for some reason.  You will note that all the switching in the video occurs within easy reach of the aisle.

When you think about it, all prototype uncoupling is done by hand.  The "scale" operators don't have any problem with hand uncoupling.  

Our large claw couplers are difficult to uncouple both by hand and by electro-magnet.  You really have to anticipate where you want uncoupling to happen to use electro- magnets.  Claw couplers are also very difficult to couple.  I find that I must really bang most of them together.  This causes more derailments than I care to mention.

 Another problem with the claws is that they often fail causing trains to come apart.  Kadee type couplers are much more reliable in my experience.  We operate 100 car HO trains at my club without problems.

 

Wow, good discussion!  I have a few comments in reply to what NH Joe posted.

I do not use Kadee couplers.  My goal was to design an operating railroad using 3-rail trains and I wanted to retain the 3-rail couplers.  The video was not edited to omit Kadees, there just aren't any.  Yes, the switching in the video was within easy reach of the aisle.  The site was chosen so that the camera on its tripod could be very close to the action. In switching districts that are an easy reach from the aisle, we uncouple manually by depressing the tab on the side of the couplers.  This is no less realistic than the skewer method most use with Kadees.  I also have ground throw switches in those areas (Caboose Industries #208s).  Real local freight crews uncouple and throw switches by hand and so do we.

I do have some switching areas that are 4 or 5 feet from the aisle.  Switches in those areas are powered with either twin-coil or Tortoise machnes and all uncoupling in those areas is via electromagnets.  They are very reliable.  We do not try to spot a car exactly over a magnet to uncouple.  Instead, the car is pushed past the uncoupling point by a couple of inches.  The locomotive then reverses direction and slowly pulls the car toward the magnet.  The magnet button is held down and when the car reaches the magnet, it uncouples.  I have "planted" a tuft of tall yellow grass next to each uncoupler so that crews can easily spot them.

Difficult coupling of 3-rail couplers can definitely be a problem.  The manufacturers have done us no favors in that regard by their lack of a standard set of dimensions for the knuckles.  Lionel knuckles in particular are not as deep as those from other manufacturers.

Those with successful operating layouts in all scales have several things in common.  One of those is standardization.  Mixing coupler types causes operating problems in HO (there are several Kadee "clones" that don't work nearly as well) as well as in 3-rail O.  In my case, I use Atlas or "old" MTH (before they changed to the current tabless design) whenever possible.  In the video I show how I modify these couplers to work almost as smoothly as Kadees.  Weaver diecast couplers are also pretty good.  I've had trouble getting K-Line and Lionel couplers to mate with Atlas, so there are no K-Line cars on my railroad and a total of 10 Lionel cars (out of about 350 cars on the railroad).  The Lionel cars run in through train blocks and are not switched into local industries.  I have quite a few cars on the layout that were 2-rail originally.  These have all been converted to use Atlas or Weaver trucks and 3-rail couplers.

I have no problems with 3-rail couplers parting, but the longest trains we run are 12 cars up a 3.5% grade.

Regarding electrocouplers on freight cars, remember that there are only 99 addresses available in TMCC.  If you want to be able to control the coupler on each end of the car separately, it takes two addresses per car.  It doesn't take long to use up the 99.

Interesting operation can be designed into any moderately sized layout, as Bob Delbridge has demonstrated above.  The "typical" 3-rail layout with multiple loops of track crammed everywhere is not compatible with prototypical operation however.

Ron touches on one other point: prototypical operators will trade added operation (another industrial spur, an interchange track or whatever) for scenic beauty every time.  I am fortunate to have enough space for both.  Note that I have rebuilt many areas of the Pennsylvania & Western to add switching opportunities.  This past Spring I added a coal mine, two team tracks, an industrial coal supply track and a freight/express station.  These provided new switching capacity for 17 cars.

HA!  I noticed the "wand" in the video isn't the one with the wooden skewer.  It originally was a TV tuner blade taped to the flashlight, but I needed the tuner for something else so the skewer came in as relief.

Paul, I think it would be easier to place electro-uncoupling magnets around the layout if you're going to use the standard O gauge couplers.

I wonder if an electromagnet device could be made to use as a handheld tool?  I'm thinking of  a piece like the HO Rix uncoupling tool:

http://www.rixproducts.com/6280014.htm

but using battery power to supply the current to the magnets, all in a handheld unit?  Lower the tool between the cars and press a button (located on top of a vertical post) to activate, thereby pulling the Kadees apart?  I don't know what kind of current would be needed, but make it with a charging jack so it can be recharged.

Of course Kadee makes in between track magnets, but they need to be moved around, depending on where you want to uncouple.

 What got me hooked on Kadee's were their ease of coupling. The cars barely moved. As far as uncoupling. I used many of the tricks mentioned above. Not wanting to go to the bother of ripping up already weathered and ballasted Gargraves to install their magnets I never gave them much thought. A visit to Al Zuckermans layout and seeing how he modified them to his existing layout. Had me ordering them the next day. Basically you are cutting the provided steel sheet to the size of the magnet. You only use 1 magnet on each side of the rail placed on top of the ties with some glue. I use some basswood stock to center them between the rails.  They work really well at both uncoupling and the delay feature of the Kadee's to push a car to a siding. I would say about 85% of the couplers work very well. Some need some tweaking with the trip pin. I've since been painting the inside of the coupler boxes with Neolube to make the more slippery. The less friction the easier it is for the magnetic to move the coupler open. I've also been experimenting with the delrin type boxes with the metal coupler to see if they perform better. Every now and then you get a coupler that just doesn't seem to work as good as some others. I make sure the cars switching industries have perfect performing couplers. All my engines have been converted as well. If you look to the middle right of the picture you can see what they look like. In some spots it's a little hard to see the magnets with the cars passing over them. I've since painted the outside of the tie yellow to mark the center of the magnet.

 My favorite engines are my 0-8-0 switchers. I've bought the Micromark card holders and researched industries as to car shipments. A fun hour can be spent just moving cars around. A great way to relax with slow prototype moves.

Hi Paul

I will add my voice to the idea of converting your equipment to Kadee couplers. It's been a real game changer for me and now that I've converted lots of cars, it's easy to do. I would recommend you spend some time over on the 3RS Forum and learn about the process. 3RS is about more than couplers, but you'll find lots of guys willing to help over there.

Keep in mind, that in the real word, somebody has to get out of the locomotive, walk down to the car they're working with, and uncouple it by hand. Us doing the same thing with a sharp stick is actually way more "prototypical' than installing electrocouplers. 

This video by OGR Forum member "Laidoffsick" is a great one to learn about switching with magnetic uncoupling and the "delayed action" feature of Kadee couplers.

The new OGR video featuring Bob's layout is great! (seriously people, get this video!) If you're interested in learning more about prototypical operation, there are two books I strongly recommend.

1. Tony Koester's "Realistic Operation, Second Edition" from Kalambach  
2. How To Operate Your Model Railroad from Kalambach. 

You will learn almost everything you need to know from these. The rest you will need to learn by actually attending an operating session. See if your local NMRA group has any open houses coming up. 

Good luck!

While I can certainly see how Kadee couplers can be an advantage, I prefer to use the couplers the wagons came with. I like doing some simple switching from the main line into the branch or into the mine or freight house siding. I did add couplers to the front of Thomas and Ivor (Percy). This switching is done at the front of the layout within easy reach though I have used a bamboo skewers (for shish kabobs) to lift one of the couplers to uncouple the cars. 

CAPPilot posted:

Paul Kallus posted:

...and it usually comes down to a siding or scenery.

That is the issue.  My layout plan has been criticized for too much track, not leaving any room for scenery. Well, to get the operational features I want does not leave much empty space.  When I start adding scenery I will have to get creative.  

Don't worry Ron, you're not alone. I didn't leave a lot of space for scenery and structures either. I'm building a model railroad, not a model world. The whole point for me, is to follow the tracks in a long narrow swath, and only include things close to the right of way. There won't be a single 3 dimensional house on the layout. I don't see many homes as revenue sources for the railroad, they have no value. That kind of real estate is reserved for industries, and even some of them may have to be flattened to fit. 

You can NEVER have too much track! That's what separates the railroad men from the boys.

Bob posted:

Wow, good discussion!  I have a few comments in reply to what NH Joe posted.

I do not use Kadee couplers.  My goal was to design an operating railroad using 3-rail trains and I wanted to retain the 3-rail couplers.  The video was not edited to omit Kadees, there just aren't any.  Yes, the switching in the video was within easy reach of the aisle.  The site was chosen so that the camera on its tripod could be very close to the action. In switching districts that are an easy reach from the aisle, we uncouple manually by depressing the tab on the side of the couplers.  This is no less realistic than the skewer method most use with Kadees.  I also have ground throw switches in those areas (Caboose Industries #208s).  Real local freight crews uncouple and throw switches by hand and so do we.

I do have some switching areas that are 4 or 5 feet from the aisle.  Switches in those areas are powered with either twin-coil or Tortoise machnes and all uncoupling in those areas is via electromagnets.  They are very reliable.  We do not try to spot a car exactly over a magnet to uncouple.  Instead, the car is pushed past the uncoupling point by a couple of inches.  The locomotive then reverses direction and slowly pulls the car toward the magnet.  The magnet button is held down and when the car reaches the magnet, it uncouples.  I have "planted" a tuft of tall yellow grass next to each uncoupler so that crews can easily spot them.

Difficult coupling of 3-rail couplers can definitely be a problem.  The manufacturers have done us no favors in that regard by their lack of a standard set of dimensions for the knuckles.  Lionel knuckles in particular are not as deep as those from other manufacturers.

Those with successful operating layouts in all scales have several things in common.  One of those is standardization.  Mixing coupler types causes operating problems in HO (there are several Kadee "clones" that don't work nearly as well) as well as in 3-rail O.  In my case, I use Atlas or "old" MTH (before they changed to the current tabless design) whenever possible.  In the video I show how I modify these couplers to work almost as smoothly as Kadees.  Weaver diecast couplers are also pretty good.  I've had trouble getting K-Line and Lionel couplers to mate with Atlas, so there are no K-Line cars on my railroad and a total of 10 Lionel cars (out of about 350 cars on the railroad).  The Lionel cars run in through train blocks and are not switched into local industries.  I have quite a few cars on the layout that were 2-rail originally.  These have all been converted to use Atlas or Weaver trucks and 3-rail couplers.

I have no problems with 3-rail couplers parting, but the longest trains we run are 12 cars up a 3.5% grade.

Regarding electrocouplers on freight cars, remember that there are only 99 addresses available in TMCC.  If you want to be able to control the coupler on each end of the car separately, it takes two addresses per car.  It doesn't take long to use up the 99.

Interesting operation can be designed into any moderately sized layout, as Bob Delbridge has demonstrated above.  The "typical" 3-rail layout with multiple loops of track crammed everywhere is not compatible with prototypical operation however.

Ron touches on one other point: prototypical operators will trade added operation (another industrial spur, an interchange track or whatever) for scenic beauty every time.  I am fortunate to have enough space for both.  Note that I have rebuilt many areas of the Pennsylvania & Western to add switching opportunities.  This past Spring I added a coal mine, two team tracks, an industrial coal supply track and a freight/express station.  These provided new switching capacity for 17 cars.

Bob, I finally got the chance to watch your video, absolutely fantastic. My wife even watched it with me, and it held her attention, which is a really big compliment!

Even though we model different locales and different eras, when it comes to running trains we are of similar mind. I'm not willing to switch to Kadees either, I can't wait to try your coupler fix.

On my layout, only mainline switches get Tortoises. All the rest are manual. If they can be reached easily, they get Caboose ground throws. If they can't, they get an updated version of the old "choke cable" using RC push rods and fascia mounted knobs.

For uncoupling, easy reach gets done by hand, and the others get electromagnets. I by large lots of cheap 027 uncoupler sections and remove the "eyes" and build them right into the GarGraves track.

I also really liked your staging yards. I also built mine on reverse loops. I'm not sure if you use them for switching cars and making new trains. I don't, mine have very large capacity, and are more difficult to access, because they are low to the ground. They just hold trains, and all the car mixing will occur on stage.

I hope we can sell more people on the concept of realistic operation, it really is fun.

Thanks everyone for good advice...I am especially challenged with space however I am adding an around the room extension to my existing island layout that will facilitate nice long runs around the basement and back to the island via 4-45 degree crossings (2 mainlines). The around the room extensions only range from 13-15" deep (except for corners which are 3-4' deep) so there is little room for sidings - and I want to leave some space (4-6") for a raised background modeled after the Schuylkill River valley that the Reading RR lines ran through. I am thinking I can use the other mainline as a siding for those times I want to do switching operations - and since I have crossovers I'll be able to make run-around moves - although it won't have the prototypically accurate dead-end sidings industries are typically sited on.

richtrow posted:

Hi Paul

I will add my voice to the idea of converting your equipment to Kadee couplers. It's been a real game changer for me and now that I've converted lots of cars, it's easy to do. I would recommend you spend some time over on the 3RS Forum and learn about the process. 3RS is about more than couplers, but you'll find lots of guys willing to help over there.

Keep in mind, that in the real word, somebody has to get out of the locomotive, walk down to the car they're working with, and uncouple it by hand. Us doing the same thing with a sharp stick is actually way more "prototypical' than installing electrocouplers. 

This video by OGR Forum member "Laidoffsick" is a great one to learn about switching with magnetic uncoupling and the "delayed action" feature of Kadee couplers.

The new OGR video featuring Bob's layout is great! (seriously people, get this video!) If you're interested in learning more about prototypical operation, there are two books I strongly recommend.

1. Tony Koester's "Realistic Operation, Second Edition" from Kalambach  
2. How To Operate Your Model Railroad from Kalambach. 

You will learn almost everything you need to know from these. The rest you will need to learn by actually attending an operating session. See if your local NMRA group has any open houses coming up. 

Good luck!

Rich,

Thank you for the Youtube link and your recommendations on the ORG video and the 2 books...I got the video over the weekend and really enjoyed watching Bob run....ummm, operate his trains....great stuff.....got the books delivered today!!!...will check them out once I get home....but before that I am attending my 1st operating session with a local hobby club....The Model RR Club Inc....they operate in HO but I find it a good place to start....I plan on using that experience and adopt it to my O scale layout...as a side note...after being at the HO club and coming home to my O scale trains...I realize why I love O scale so much....to take a few words out of Bob's video ...the trains are "IN YOUR FACE"....