question on value affected by being repainted?

From a collector's point of view, a repaint usually will have less value than original factory paint in good condition.  From an operator's point of view, it depends on the piece and how well the repaint job is.

Asking if the seller is willing to come down a bit on the price is Ok, just don't offer 10 bucks for a 100 buck item  Otherwise, if you're not willing to pay the asking price of a repaint, "no thanks" will suffice.

Rusty

Also from the operator's point of view, it depends if the paint job is prototypical. A good prototypical paint job may actually increase value. An example in favor of doing it would be to fix a factory paintjob that was "wrong" or failed (flaking or bubbling).

If it's a fantacy paint job, I likely would devalue the item by at least 90%. Basically good for spare-parts.

Gilly

As Rusty wrote, to a collector, a well done repaint is only worth about as much as the item would be in the most common paint scheme in good condition.

Folks who are telling you it has the same value as a mint item are mistaken, I wouldn't use them as an information source in the future.

quote:

 also what can i say to them if i am very interested in the piece but will not pay what they are asking any tips so i do not upset them??  

We all have our own methods.
I make it a practice never to say anything negative about the item in question. I assume that the seller knows what he has.

I simply politely ask them whether they would consider taking $xx for the item in question.

Most, but not all sellers at train shows/meets expect to dicker.

A restored train can never ever be mint. The best it can be is excellent IF the restoration is a good correct quality job. Otherwise a value of very good is about all it's worth. Also, a reprint can only be worth the most common color values. It makes no difference if a loco is restored to a rare color, it's only worth the most common color. It is never insulting to make a reasonable fair offer for an item. As someone said, don't offer $10 for an item that is worth $100. You should not gave to explain your offer, but the seller should be prepared to justify their asking price. That's what they are selling for on e-Bay is not justification in my book. 

Gandy

This is particularly meaningful when the prototype is "Lionel Lines".

Pete

TD,

This is how I look at it...

If the repainting is done and meets your expectations, and you want to enjoy the article afterward, and the price is right... then yes.  It does not effect the value to you.

If you are looking at these toys as an investment / collector's value, then repainting will probably be detrimental.

If you look at the modifications that have been done recently; LaidOffSick's ATSF GP30 painting and fixing the pilot or Industrial Model's 2-rail conversions and weathering; they are great works of art, and although the "collector" value of the toys is gone, their work adds value and these pieces will go for much higher than when they originally paid for them.

Again, only my thoughts from the voices in my head.

Thanks,

Mario

Fantasy, club, and mfr. lettered cars get repainted by me in a heartbeat, to some

collectors' horror, I am sure, but I don't pick these up unless they are dirt cheap, for

I know that is what I will do with them.  I would guess not very many repaints do not

depreciate significantly, although for the above types of cars, repainting greatly

enhances them, IMO.  I am aware of that when I do it, but there is more value to me

in getting what I want.

quote:

Fantasy, club, and mfr. lettered cars get repainted by me in a heartbeat, to some

collectors' horror, I am sure, but I don't pick these up unless they are dirt cheap,

I don't think many collectors concern themselves with what others do with their own trains. If you are picking trains up inexpensively, there probably isn't a whole lot of collector interest in those items anyway. Enjoy your trains as you see fit!

One of my favorite old magazine articles described how to convert Lionel Madison cars into self-propelled MU cars (subway?). I don't remember the entire article, but the project did involve adding circular windows to the ends of the car.
I would absolutely love to have a well done example of that project.
One of my favorite engines is a customized 681 turbine. It has extra details, a different headlight, and smoke lifters. The e-unit slot was closed off, and the engine was wired to run forward only.  I re-installed an e-unit without a lever, and used a 1946 style brush plate to provide e-unit control.

Repainted Lionel items are generally significantly less valuable than if they were all-original. Howver, pieces in less than Excellent Condition are worth so much less than better pieces anyway, that sometimes repainting them can actually improve their value (at least as defined as "desireability").

Any top-notch-condition collectible (Ex-Mint) item which has been repainted will almost always be worth less on the market than if it had been left untouched.

My only experience with respect to this subject is I recently contracted with a "professional" restorer/painter to convert a K-Line commuter set that was formerly in another road name to a RailRunner set. I did not do this to decrease or to increase it's value as this was the only way for me to acquire this set as it is a one-of-a-kind. To me, the set is now better looking than any other commuter rail set that I have laid my eyes on. What impact does this conversion have to do with it's present value? My guess is the set is probably worth a great deal more than the value before the conversion.

So to answer the Thread question, yes the value can be increased depending upon the project.

I had all the numbers changed on my Williams Scale GG1 that was converted to TMCC and Railsounds 5 including those in the Keystones so that the tower com and crew talk would match the numbers on the engine. I don't think that it devalued the engine at all.

Having said that, traditionally I have heard that re-painted or re-finished engines and rolling stock lose about 50% of the value listed in Greenberg guides under the "good" designation. However, if you have always wanted a particular roadname that was never offered judge the quality of the repaint and make an offer accordingly.

THE real railroads re-paint their Engines!So what if they are worth less money?Are you worried about cutting into your kids inheritance?LOL

i did not mean good repaints.  ever year when i go to the show there is this one guy who has some cars that i like but some one had repainted them brown.  it is a very bad paint job and he still thinks because they have paint on them they are worth mint or next to it.

just to make it clear i am one of the guys who buys older pieces and repaints them so i am happy with them.  but i buy them when they are in bad shape so i do not affect the value much.     

In that case, it's "move along, nothing to see here."  He obviously like hauling them around.

Rusty

One of the older Greenberg guides, I forget which, showed restored/repainted at no more than the value of the piece in C5 condition. I think that should still hold up as a decent rule of thumb. From there, how much do you like it, how bad do you want it. A really well done piece that makes me feel like I gotta have it, well you pay what it's worth to you.

Steve

I have a 715 tank that was in excellent condition except for peeling decals.  Cleaned it up, shot it in gloss black, put original decals on, and presto - a beautiful piece.  Make me an offer over a grand! ( kidding, it is not for sale).

I think I understand every point made in this thread and I respect all those who decided, like me, to chip in with their thoughts. What I also wonder is how many train people are totally down with the idea of a Greenberg's guide, anyway? I'm not. I go to train shows and meets where prices soar and bottom out, depending on a lot of factors. Guys who run modern, high-tech toys they want to sell are as nuts about getting top dollar for their original impulse buy (likely in many/most cases) as are guys who still love tinplate or postwar Lionel, Flyer, Kusan or Marx and expect to sell this stuff (if it still has a cardboard carton in not-bad shape) to someone who hates money (meant in humor, not to offend). There's a lot of truth in the old adage, "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". Trains are worth what anyone is willing to pay, in the long run. Many of us drool over items that, if we actually shorted the family and bought, would soon enough join the crowded shelf while we chase down the next drool-worthy item. The Book is not the bible. Whomever sat in Greenberg's office that day and decided that a 6400 boxcar with 18 more rivets than the version that made its way thru the northeast that fall of '55 has got to be worth 400 bucks more than the regular version must, or should, laugh at some of us train guys from time to time. All this coming from one who, over a long time, has had many rarities and now finds no regret in simply enjoying trains for their real value, what they mean to me, not you...thank you for letting me share this point of view!

Not to overburdent this discussion - at one time good quality repaints were getting somewhere near what a VG/Excellent original piece would draw, but no more. Collecting trains has split between two extremes - the top shelf original/in the box LN/mint, and the rest, and that includes the VG and lower originals and all repaints. I'm told this is a trend in most mature collectible markets, as the market matures (and sometimes shrinks - like stamp collecting), the very best pieces take off in value and everything else reduces in value as the older collectors either already have the cheaper stuff, or are only looking for the very best.

The value might increase as someone said here, but what the value is and what you actually can get for it, is too different things. In most cases, if you paint it the value goes way down, infact a collector would'nt buy it at all. Paint a $5,000. 700E blue and see what you get for it.