question,why dont model train company make the tender and engine couple together like the real thing?

They do when you are taking about scale engines on scale radius track.

What radius track are you using?

Do you mean closeness of tender to the engine cab? Or are you discussing the actual drawbar connection between the engine and tender?

Let's assume you mean the distance between the locomotive and tender.  Back in the day when 027 curves were one of two choices, and by far the most popular... you had to accommodate  the two coupled units backing up and even backing through "S" curves.  I've seen pre-war Lionel where the loco and tender were way too far apart, even with the above considerations.   Perhaps it was figured that tiny hands would have an easier time getting the two pieces together with oodles of room to play with.  And yes, it looks positively horrible!  On my 736, it was possible to substitute the older 726 drawbar to get a closer fit; other times it meant adding a new slot to the locomotive tongue, so the tender could ride closer. Even did something like this on my 1990 Lionel 700E.   My other pet peeve is N gauge sized pilot wheels on O gauge steamers.  I understand the issue here, but notching the cylinders in the rear would produce a much better looking machine !

I've modified several of my locos to have much closer coupling than from the factory, determining it so that it is exactly as on the prototype, or if I can't get that, then as narrow as can be with just room enough that tender and loco body don't meet in 72" if is a 72" only loco or 60" if its a loco I will run on the other loops.

Third Rail uses an actual drawbar.

Rusty

Lionel's new self adjusting draw bar on their S-3 has a rather clever device that brings the engine and tender close together when it's on straight track and as it enters a curve, that distance actually increases to compensate for our overly tight curves.  I'm assuming that all of their Legacy vision locomotives will now incorporate this feature.

Paul Fischer

This is a good discussion:  I also have modified the drawbars on all of my steamers to lessen the gap.   Some will still negotiate O-36, and some will do O-45.   O-48 is the minimum diameter on my layout.

I have been concerned about one feature on the new LionChief steamers based on the posted videos - the long drawbars between loco and tender.   I may not be able to shorten these drawbars. 

How is prototype different then toy trains

Can someone post a picture of how the real drawbar attaches,

To draw a tender right up to the buffers it takes really broad curves. My minimum curve is 0144, but am hampered by number 6 switches, largest scaletrax has. This Hudson is very close coupled with the TMCC wire in the position the coal auger coupler would take. It works fine on my broad curves, but just.

yes your wright hotwater..the drawbar thats connects to the engine and tender..

some of factory setup

are to much,,looks like do do..Id took out 3/4" out of mine..looks better...since im running scale 3rd rail Q2 and S1 duplexs.....on pics of the real steamers..they have couplers..

Some locos involve a lot more work to "shorten" the gap than others, yes.  But potentially, any loco's gap can be shortened - it's just a matter of how much work you want to do.  That said, while I have gone to considerable effort in some cases, there are some locos, mostly MTH, that I just didn't do because the work required was not worth it.  

Regardless, when I do this, I do it with a piece of the minimum curve I want to run the thing on, on the workbench, and adjust things until I have just enough clearance.  Say I want to run an RK loco on nothing smaller than O-60: most of them have quite a big gap so they will run on tight, tight, curves, so I can shorten the gap a lot. I set up the O-60 track and check it frequently as I am making the new, shorter drawbar, so it is just long enough.

In many cases I have found it easiest to make a new piece from scratch, rather than actually modify the old piece. 

To me, the easiest cases are when you can shorten what you need while working on only one side or the other -  only the loco side of the coupling and leave the tender alone, or vice versa, or vice versa.  

More difficult is when you have to modify both.  This increases difficulty for two reasons: a) the obvious reason is that you have to work on both pieces, which means twice as much disassembly and a lot of care in coordinating the adjustments you make to both pieces, b) the non-obvious reason is that there is usually a reason - clearance, room to swing, or something else - that precludes just working on one side alone, and that reason will often be a pain in the butt to work around .

 On Legacy locos, to make any meaningful reduction in gap you often have to relocate at least one side of the IR coupler: its right up there at the middle of the gap and if you want to shorten the gap . . .  I really don't like fiddling with it but I have never ruined one - just have to be careful - I never cut or shorten the wires to the IR thingees but instead take it loose, move it and reattached it to the shortened bar(s), and find some way to push the now-longer-than-needed-leads up farther into the tender or loco as the case may be, or out of the way so that they won't snag anything. 

On recent MTH locos, with the square vertical connector that fits through the squaqre hole and clips to form the coupling , there is a lot of careful-don't-damage-the-thing work do be done.  I don't like doing these at all.  One o fthe locos I decided not to do was a RK 0-6-0 I had, I just left alone.  

Real steam locomotives do NOT have couplers between the engine and tender! If couplers were used, there would be slack action between the two components and THAT can NOT be allowed. On real steam locomotives the tender MUST be drawn-up TIGHT to the large spring loaded buffer assembly under the cab apron.

That is why there are two VERY thick solid steel drawbars between the tender and engine; one is the actual "pulling drawbar", while the second one is the "safety drawbar". THERE ARE NO COUPLERS between the engine and tender.

I dunno, looks like drawbars to me:

Rusty

A 3rd Rail PRR M1b 4-8-2 with a prototypical engine to tender gap.

Maybe on new locomotives, but I have three of them here that use a standard drawbar like most other models.

I wish they were as easy as my MTH PS-1 equipped PRR S-2.  The locomotive has a long bar off of it with holes in it, and the tender has a peg that goes into the hole.  It already came with two holes, one for operation and one for display, I think if I remember the manual right.  Either way I have O48 track on the floor now and it runs just fine in the display hole.  If I want to go closer, I just drill a new hole and I'm done.  Pity most of my other steamers have tongue and groove connections so they'd need a new bar like Lee says he does.

That looks really good, any more pics?

Greg, thanks.

This K Line Hudson is now boxed up and being shipped off to mate with a PT tender, new fan smoke, electronics and I hope a scale valve gear. Will continue super detail when it returns and show some pics then. There is a pic of the complete loco weathered in one of my post.

heres what Im talking about..this is a Q2 and has a coupler...so there calling them buffers?

I'd say that coupler was added to the drawbar so another loco could push/ pull it around the shop area. Remove the coupler then pin up the tender.

We always wondered why the Q's were so touchy...and now we know the answer !

This is not a test plant dry run as the Q would be shoved in w/o tender with the front facing out.  This is also a production Q, so who knows what is really going on...other than making the Locomotive easier to access and move.

As Fisch pointed out, the Lionel drawbar mechanism on the S3 Northern brings the tender in close and still allows the locomotive to navigate relatively tight curves (I think the S3 is rated for 0-54, which is typical for a scale Northern). I don't know what other engines might have this drawbar - the S3 is the only one I know of. I assume they plan to use it on the new Big Boy, but I don't know for sure. I think a lot of us would like to see Lionel use it on more high-end scale steamers. Here are some pictures showing how it works.  

On straight track.

 On a curve, it opens up just enough. This is 0-63,  

And here's the bottom view showing how it works. Very clean, especially with Lionel's IR connection instead of a tether.

The 261 has a clever design to keep the tender close; On the underside of the tender note the locator detection tag too.

"I'd say that coupler was added to the drawbar so another loco could push/ pull it around the shop area. Remove the coupler then pin up the tender"

 I think chuck may be on to something, apparently, on this particular day it was shoved "nose" first.

The coupler would make it easy to pull back out of the shop.

Where I work we have pindle hook and fifth wheel attachments for a front end loader so trailers/ and portable equipment can be moved around the shop without needing a truck. It could be a similar concept.

Hopefully Rich or hotwater can chime in and set us straight.

well on the 765 brick looks to me she got a coupler too with to draw bars under it..

Knuckles can  break and do occasionally.  (lots of reasons)  You wouldn't want to depend on a knuckle to keep the engine and tender together if this engine was on a coal drag or any  full tonnage train.  Quite a mess!

I installed a 36 mm draw bar on my Rail-king Northern.  On my 72 in radius curves the cab roof miss the tender to by a couple of silly mm's I think the original was 50 mm which just didn't look right

Looks can be very deceiving

The purpose of the coupler is so the shop switcher can move the locomotive around.  Using chains, cables and bungee cords would not be desirable or safe.

But, if you want to continue believing that's what was used in regular revenue service, go right ahead.

But you'd still be wrong.

Next thing you know, you'll be telling us the N de M ran their Alcos on bettendorf trucks...

Rusty

So, it's all right to depend on the knuckles on the 150 coal cars in the train, but not on the locomotive?

Let's see, if a knuckle breaks in the coal train then the train separates, loses air and stops.  If a knuckle breaks between the loco and tender, they separate and the water line from tender to locomotive ruptures.  No water can be added to the boiler which I imagine would pose substantial risk of a crown sheet failure.  Catastrophic to say the least.

Hmm... How about the story posted not long ago here where they lost the tender and went about a mile to catch back up with it?  Were they running with a long hose?

Man!, that picture sure makes me giggle!

No matter what you think, steam locomotives simply can NOT have couplers for connection between the engine and tender! They didn't prior to the Civil War era, and they don't now. That knuckle you see in the above photo, is just to move an engine around a shop or even the builder's factory. Also note that bid flat plate area, right above the coupler. That plate contacts the Radial Buffer assembly mounted into a special spring loaded pocket in the front of the tender frame.

As I posted earlier, there can be absolutely NO SLACK between the engine and tender, otherwise there would be so much thrashing & banging you wouldn't be able to ride in the engine cab.

Another point, notice hoe low to the rail that temporary "shop coupler" is to the rail. That would NEVER be allowed in regular service! If you look carefully, you can plainly see that that tempory "shop coupler" is bolted to the underside of the main drawbar!

Sigh.

Steam locomotives have drawbars, usually double.

Steam locomotives do not have Janney (knuckle) couplers between the loco and tender.

The Q2 above has a shop coupler added to the plainly visible drawbar for shop movement

(coupled to a switcher without the Q2's tender) and service/repair.

Please make it stop...please...no more...

That would be correct.

Rusty

Until this thread, I just assumed that Lionel was correct(in reality) with a drawbar connecting the engine with the tender; so I guess "cost was the reason Lionel used a drawbar instead of a coupler?

Did Lionel ever use a coupler? I do not recall any.

No.  There is the stoker tube, buffer, then the drawbars.  And in the other photo, look right above that coupler, notice the circular shape...that is the top drawbar.