Questions About Commuting To NYC In The Early 20th Century

Grand Central Terminal has a loop track on its lower level.

Nowadays there are either electric MU's or dual-mode push-pull trains that run cab-car first into the terminal, so the loop is rarely used (if at all)

---PCJ

Camelbacks were designed because of the Wootten firebox, which as designed by John Wootten of the Reading to burn anthracite coal.  It had a very wide grate because anthracite burns slower.  The result was that it didn't leave a lot of room for visibility for the engineer so the cab was moved forward.  Many mid Atlantic roads used Camelbacks including the Reading, Lehigh Valley, CNJ, Erie, the Lackawanna and a few I'm certainly missing. 

They were never officially "banned", however they weren't the safest to operate.  A broken rod could come up through the cab, communication with the fireman on the rear platform was minimal to non existent through a speaking tube.  The last Camelback to run was CNJ 774 in 1954.  The reason the CNJ ran theirs so late was a budget issue.  The CNJ was essentially dieselized by 1953 with only a few Camelbacks running later than that.

 After the teens, most locomotives with Wootten fireboxes had the cab on the rear and some Camelbacks were rebuilt that way. 

Forgot to mention that the Engineer's cab straddled the boiler, it didn't slice through it.  About as tight as the cab of a GG1 as a result. 

As for the CUT locomotives, they ran on an electrified commuter route from downtown Cleveland built by the Van Swerigan brothers to serve one of their housing developments.  The P1-a used an overhead pantograph.  The line is still in service, but the CUT infrastructure was abandoned.  The old catenary poles are in place, but a new system has been built with MU electric cars.  The line now runs mainly to the airport which was developed next to the right of way.

I used to ride NH trains into Grand Central Terminal.  They were pulled by FL9s diesel/electrics.  They used the third rail electric system for power inside Grand Central Terminal.

Many of these units ran into the stub end commuter tracks.  I supposed that they backed the train out after offloading the passengers and then ran around the loop or ran around the train to the other end on a siding for the return trip.  In any case, they were at the other end of the train for the return trip.

I know that the long distance trains such as the 20th Century were pulled out of GCT about 5 miles to Mott Haven.  Mott Haven had a wye where the entire train was turned to face the outbound direction.  It was then pulled backwards into GCT for the return trip.  

The engine powered trains were gradually replaced MU units in later years that had control cabs at each end.

NH Joe

Just to clarify some of this, Grand Central has 4 loop tracks at about track 33 or 34 over by the Starbucks. NH and NYC locomotive or motor pulled trains would use those tracks as arrival then loop around to be serviced at Mott Haven or just back into a stub track in the case of the New Haven. the loop tracks are on the upper level not lower. The lower level was originally designed for MU suburban trains not for loco pulled trains and it is still used in that capacity today. Metro-North loco pulled trains use the upper level only. When a long distance train, ie: the 20th Century was being back in for its departure it would work like this, a NYC S Motor would pull it in with the observation car behind the engine and then in the terminal the engine would run around the train and back it in to the bumper. I hope this helps clear some of your questions up.

RailRide posted:

Grand Central Terminal has a loop track on its lower level.

Nowadays there are either electric MU's or dual-mode push-pull trains that run cab-car first into the terminal, so the loop is rarely used (if at all)

---PCJ

I wish there was some way that the public could go behind the scenes in the terminal, but its uber dangerous down there. First of all, there is almost no light, except for signals and oncoming trains. Second, the MU's and Comet coaches ride quiet, and can sneak up on you. Third, if it's a walking group, some moron is bound to trip on the third rail. Also, from looking at track diagrams, it seems easy to get lost down there. I have no clue where the upper level and lower level split and go there separate ways, if someone knows, tell me how that works please do. It is unreal how many tracks there are down there. Four tracks turn into eight tracks, and eight tracks turns into 44 tracks somehow. I'd be willing to bet that Metro-North engineers aren't familiar with the layout underground. They just follow the signals and roll with the punches. Who knows what's down there these days. By the way, isn't there a disused platform that outbound trains pass before entering the narrow tunnels? I do know about FDR's passenger car hiding somewhere down there.

New Haven Joe posted:

I used to ride NH trains into Grand Central Terminal.  They were pulled by FL9s diesel/electrics.  They used the third rail electric system for power inside Grand Central Terminal.

Many of these units ran into the stub end commuter tracks.  I supposed that they backed the train out after offloading the passengers and then ran around the loop or ran around the train to the other end on a siding for the return trip.  In any case, they were at the other end of the train for the return trip.

I know that the long distance trains such as the 20th Century were pulled out of GCT about 5 miles to Mott Haven.  Mott Haven had a wye where the entire train was turned to face the outbound direction.  It was then pulled backwards into GCT for the return trip.  

The engine powered trains were gradually replaced MU units in later years that had control cabs at each end.

NH Joe

 

Didn't Amtrak use GCT back in the day? Why else would they have a fleet of FL9s and dual power P32s?

GG1 4877 posted:

Camelbacks were designed because of the Wootten firebox, which as designed by John Wootten of the Reading to burn anthracite coal.  It had a very wide grate because anthracite burns slower.  The result was that it didn't leave a lot of room for visibility for the engineer so the cab was moved forward.  Many mid Atlantic roads used Camelbacks including the Reading, Lehigh Valley, CNJ, Erie, the Lackawanna and a few I'm certainly missing. 

They were never officially "banned", however they weren't the safest to operate.  A broken rod could come up through the cab, communication with the fireman on the rear platform was minimal to non existent through a speaking tube.  The last Camelback to run was CNJ 774 in 1954.  The reason the CNJ ran theirs so late was a budget issue.  The CNJ was essentially dieselized by 1953 with only a few Camelbacks running later than that.

 After the teens, most locomotives with Wootten fireboxes had the cab on the rear and some Camelbacks were rebuilt that way. 

Forgot to mention that the Engineer's cab straddled the boiler, it didn't slice through it.  About as tight as the cab of a GG1 as a result. 

I saw a video of 774 pulling a fan trip to Bayhead Junction in the 20's. Great video!

Railfan Brody posted:

I do know about FDR's passenger car hiding somewhere down there.

Not true. A long standing rumor which keeps getting brought up by sensational news reporting.

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

I do know about FDR's passenger car hiding somewhere down there.

Not true. A long standing rumor which keeps getting brought up by sensational news reporting.

It might not be FDR's car, but it is an old baggage car.

645 posted:

Brody - I will answer your inquiry regarding GCT track layout as follows: Go to Google, choose the "Images" option, enter keywords "grand central terminal track plan" and enter. A bunch of track diagrams will come up that should help you make sense of GCT trackage. And now that you know how to search in Google for images use it to answer your own questions if possible. When you fail to get a result then you can ask here for help.

Also check this link out for more on GCT trackage:  http://www.gricer.com/gct/gct-intro.html - it includes both the upper and lower levels.

In the later days of the FL9's and with today's P32's Metro North simply keeps the power on the north end since they use push pulls on the diesel side. This means a cab car leads into GCT up to the bumper block so no need to run the engine around the consist. On the right in the below image you can see a diesel consist in GCT as they operate today:

Why would you want to walk in the tunnels? I wouldn't be concerned about tripping over the third rail - my concern there would be the live 750 volts flowing through that third rail which can and will  KILL  you if you come into contact with it! Doesn't matter if you are in the tunnel, station trackage or out along the scenic Hudson River - it's equally deadly!

Not much to see in the tunnels. Want proof? Here's one of the bores under the East River showing a LIRR diesel train headed by a dual mode:

I have NO desire to venture into the tunnels. I'm interested in checking out some of the disused and historic areas of the terminal. For instance, riding a speeder around the loop track, or visiting the abandoned baggage car. You are right, the tunnels are extremely narrow. When there are bricks whizzing past about 10 inches out the window, the engineer in the cab car doesn't dare break the rule posted on the door:

DON'T LEAN ON THE DOOR ............ unless you want to compress your body.

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Didn't Amtrak use GCT back in the day? Why else would they have a fleet of FL9s and dual power P32s?

Try Google first to answer your questions! Using the keywords "amtrak gct" I got these this link in a second:

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07...g-grand-central.html

Amtrak no longer has any FL9's as they were all retired in the early 1990's. Also remember that Penn Station also has third rail in it for the LIRR which Amtrak also uses for their P32's to this day as a result of using the West Side Line to access Penn from the Hudson line.

Again, Google to the rescue:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Line_(NYCRR)

So the FL9's were used on the NEC? 

Abandoning GCT was indeed a smart move for Amtrak. It makes transfers and engine changes a lot easier. Just a curiosity, did GG1's pull freight trains through Penn Station? I'll be the first to say that do not like the appearance of two dirty GG1's pulling a freight train. But a polished maroon GG1 pulling a passenger train is beautiful in my opinion.

So the FL9's were used on the NEC? No.

 did GG1's pull freight trains through Penn Station? No.

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

I do know about FDR's passenger car hiding somewhere down there.

Not true. A long standing rumor which keeps getting brought up by sensational news reporting.

It might not be FDR's car, but it is an old baggage car.

So it is an old baggage car (used for maintenance of way material), and has NOTHING to do with the continually perpetuated rumor about it being "FDR's car", which by the way is actually in a museum in Florida.

They actually tried to run freight thru NY Penn Station in the 60s, once with a 70 car coal train led by a pair of E44s.. DIdn't work that well, especially the tunnels not caring for the load.

at  645,

750 volts flowing through that third rail which can and will  KILL  you if you come into contact with it!....

I had a fishing chain wrap around the 3rd. rail by Columbia Rock, i know  how 750 volts

feels.........Lol

Kelly:

Thank you for your explanation above.  Yours is the most concise explanation for the existence of Camelbacks I have read.

Curt

GG1 4877 posted:

Many mid Atlantic roads used Camelbacks including the Reading, Lehigh Valley, CNJ, Erie, the Lackawanna and a few I'm certainly missing. 

The Union Pacific; the Southern Pacific; the Santa Fe...

ecd15 posted:

So the FL9's were used on the NEC? No.

 did GG1's pull freight trains through Penn Station? No.

The FL9's were beautiful locomotives and operated on Amtrak's Empire Service along the Hudson.  Back in the 1990's, I was lucky to get invited to the Amtrak facility in Rensselaer to take pictures of the last of their FL9's which were stored there before being shipped to the shops at Bear, Delaware. I moved 5 years ago and still have not found those photos...some day. 

Tom 

Brody,  Do a search for "Metro North Cabride, 125th Street to Grand Central Terminal, youtube".  You will find several videos which will allow you to view the maze of tracks into and out of GCT.    Earl G.

I always wondered how freight trains get from north NJ to New England states if they can't go through Manhattan? Does Norfolk Southern have any way of going into Massachusetts? CSX has the line to Albany and east to Boston.

For the record NYC had a lot of competition in the outer NJ and PA areas with Lackawanna bringing passengers to Hoboken and CNJ, B&O, Reading, and LV bringing passengers to Communipaw. However both required ferries so I could see where NYC with Grand Central and PRR with Penn Station had a huge advantage. 

lightningstripe posted:

Brody,  Do a search for "Metro North Cabride, 125th Street to Grand Central Terminal, youtube".  You will find several videos which will allow you to view the maze of tracks into and out of GCT.    Earl G.

I have and I know the tunnel layout: a double track bore in the center and a single track on both sides of the center tunnel. I thought I saw a ramp that leads to the lower level near the interior mouth of the tunnels.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

For the record NYC had a lot of competition in the outer NJ and PA areas with Lackawanna bringing passengers to Hoboken and CNJ, B&O, Reading, and LV bringing passengers to Communipaw. However both required ferries so I could see where NYC with Grand Central and PRR with Penn Station had a huge advantage. 

But no other railroad could top the streamlined silver Hudsons! It really is a shame that they were all scrapped, but I don't blame NYC considering the situation they were in.

Railfan Brody posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

For the record NYC had a lot of competition in the outer NJ and PA areas with Lackawanna bringing passengers to Hoboken and CNJ, B&O, Reading, and LV bringing passengers to Communipaw. However both required ferries so I could see where NYC with Grand Central and PRR with Penn Station had a huge advantage. 

But no other railroad could top the streamlined silver Hudsons! It really is a shame that they were all scrapped, but I don't blame NYC considering the situation they were in.

Agreed. Nothing could top the streamlined Hudsons. I never learned why they were all scrapped. Can you explain why NYC did this? What situation were they in?

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

For the record NYC had a lot of competition in the outer NJ and PA areas with Lackawanna bringing passengers to Hoboken and CNJ, B&O, Reading, and LV bringing passengers to Communipaw. However both required ferries so I could see where NYC with Grand Central and PRR with Penn Station had a huge advantage. 

But no other railroad could top the streamlined silver Hudsons! It really is a shame that they were all scrapped, but I don't blame NYC considering the situation they were in.

Agreed. Nothing could top the streamlined Hudsons. I never learned why they were all scrapped. Can you explain why NYC did this? What situation were they in?

The NYC went bankrupt and needed money from anywhere they could get it. So they reluctantly sold the Hudsons for scrap, and they probably went for a decent amount of money because of the streamlined guard.

Railfan

Agreed. Nothing could top the streamlined Hudsons. I never learned why they were all scrapped. Can you explain why NYC did this? What situation were they in?

The NYC went bankrupt and needed money from anywhere they could get it. So they reluctantly sold the Hudsons for scrap, and they probably went for a decent amount of money because of the streamlined guard.

NYC removed all streamlining long before the Hudson's went to scrap.

The ESE's in 1949,50

The 20th Century Dreyfuss' in 1945.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Railfan

Agreed. Nothing could top the streamlined Hudsons. I never learned why they were all scrapped. Can you explain why NYC did this? What situation were they in?

The NYC went bankrupt and needed money from anywhere they could get it. So they reluctantly sold the Hudsons for scrap, and they probably went for a decent amount of money because of the streamlined guard.

NYC removed all streamlining long before the Hudson's went to scrap.

Rusty

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for letting me know.

What amazes me is that folks commuted to NYC from thirty, forty, fifty miles away almost a century ago, and their trip was shorter than some today! 

Read: "The Wreck of the Penn Central" Peter Binzen 1971. And Brody, stop printing out three jpgs with every message using storage space and consuming bandwidth! That includes images of your favorite car. And promoting the Steam Preservation group logo. This board is not the place for your "stream of consciousness blog".

GG1 4877 posted:

As for the CUT locomotives, they ran on an electrified commuter route from downtown Cleveland built by the Van Swerigan brothers to serve one of their housing developments.  The P1-a used an overhead pantograph.  The line is still in service, but the CUT infrastructure was abandoned.  The old catenary poles are in place, but a new system has been built with MU electric cars.  The line now runs mainly to the airport which was developed next to the right of way.

Why electric instead of diesel? Was there a significantly long tunnel?

Railfan Brody posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

As for the CUT locomotives, they ran on an electrified commuter route from downtown Cleveland built by the Van Swerigan brothers to serve one of their housing developments.  The P1-a used an overhead pantograph.  The line is still in service, but the CUT infrastructure was abandoned.  The old catenary poles are in place, but a new system has been built with MU electric cars.  The line now runs mainly to the airport which was developed next to the right of way.

Why electric instead of diesel? Was there a significantly long tunnel?

Maybe diesels hadn't been developed when all that was constructed?

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

As for the CUT locomotives, they ran on an electrified commuter route from downtown Cleveland built by the Van Swerigan brothers to serve one of their housing developments.  The P1-a used an overhead pantograph.  The line is still in service, but the CUT infrastructure was abandoned.  The old catenary poles are in place, but a new system has been built with MU electric cars.  The line now runs mainly to the airport which was developed next to the right of way.

Why electric instead of diesel? Was there a significantly long tunnel?

Maybe diesels hadn't been developed when all that was constructed?

Why didn't they use steam powered commuter trains?

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

As for the CUT locomotives, they ran on an electrified commuter route from downtown Cleveland built by the Van Swerigan brothers to serve one of their housing developments.  The P1-a used an overhead pantograph.  The line is still in service, but the CUT infrastructure was abandoned.  The old catenary poles are in place, but a new system has been built with MU electric cars.  The line now runs mainly to the airport which was developed next to the right of way.

Why electric instead of diesel? Was there a significantly long tunnel?

Maybe diesels hadn't been developed when all that was constructed?

Or steam?

Now come on Brody,,,,,,,you know steam was beginning to be "developed" in the U.S. prior to 1850. Maybe the city simply didn't what all that smoke & soot, so the obvious choice was electrification.

There are two primary reasons for choosing electric traction - one is pollution abatement, and the other is that electric motors simply accelerate faster than any other form of traction. The urban electrification was primarily done as a matter of being able to keep to the schedules with an ever increasing number of trains. The pollution reduction would have been a fringe benefit - just look at what existed before electric traction became available.

Brody,  The New York Central did not purchase any passenger diesels until 1945. The CUT electrics were built around 1930 and used between Collinwood and Lindale (about 17 miles) until they were modified, in 1955, for 600 volt outside 3rd rail operation and sent east to haul trains between GCT and Harmon (about 33 miles).   Earl G.

I edited my previous post. I was questioning why steam wasn't being used on commuter trains like most cities at that time. It was just poorly worded.