Questions about painting craftsman structures

Other's will have more technical resposes than me, but here's the simple version:

Go ahead and add the bracing before priming. The wood-to-wood bracing is better than wood-to-primer bracing. I use yellow carpenter's glue.

Head to Wal-mart and by the Color Place $1.00 gray primer. Spray the inside of the walls first, then after about 5 to 10 minutes, flip the walls over and spray the outside. Allow to dry for at least a couple hours, or overnight. Priming both sides will keep the warping to a minimum. Rustoleum paint/primer takes too long to dry in my opinion, which will allow the walls to warp.

You can now paint the final color coat. I prefer a solvent or enamal base over a water base, but with the primer dried, it has sealed the wood, so even water-based paint sprayed or brushed on thin won't warp the walls much.

Other's will have more technical resposes than me, but here's the simple version:

Go ahead and add the bracing before priming. The wood-to-wood bracing is better than wood-to-primer bracing. I use yellow carpenter's glue.

Head to Wal-mart and by the Color Place $1.00 gray primer. Spray the inside of the walls first, then after about 5 to 10 minutes, flip the walls over and spray the outside. Allow to dry for at least a couple hours, or overnight. Priming both sides will keep the warping to a minimum.  BTS kits even talk about painting the edges.  If you paint both sides it should be flat not curled. Even the  press and stick shingles need to be pre-painted, one side.  I found that the paper shingles shrink considerably.  There is a lot of painting before any assembly.   Rustoleum paint/primer takes too long to dry in my opinion, which will allow the walls to warp.

You can now paint the final color coat. I prefer a solvent or enamal base over a water base, but with the primer dried, it has sealed the wood, so even water-based paint sprayed or brushed on thin won't warp the walls much.

Here is a link to Eliott and Sons Supply that shows a lot of the assembly and painting.  Unfortunately the chronology is backwards, finish to start. 

The issue with completely painting all the panels, is the adhesive usually has to be a bit more agressive to penetrate the paint.  Instead of white glue a more intense carpenter's yellow glue, which will require a bit more clean up.  I also found that thicker CA (Super glue) seemed to work well for me on some items, not on others. 

Best wishes on your project

Mike  

Here is a picture of the Cabin Creek Coal Tipple that shows the painting on both sides and still additional bracing was added to straighten/strengthen the end walls.

From the Bar Mill website.   Beautiful model.   I'd work panel painting, both sides.  Then window and detail painting.  Some panel detail assembly, flat.  Eventually putting walls together.    

A couple of Bar Mills kits are chronicled step by step across the street and addresses priming and bracing with photos.

I've done a number of bar mills kits and agree with brr about bracing and priming. brace before painting. prime both sides. the reason walmart's  color place paint works well is that it sprays very thin, not to mention that it's also very cheap. I do not use solvent based paint on anything and while I built Gravely, I don't recall Art recommending it. Regardless, it is just way too toxic for me. I always use acrylics.  Because they are water based, you want to make sure the primer is dry and don't overdo the application. since water based paint dries to the touch in a relatively short time, you can weight down the walls with books or books on top of wood which will make sure the walls stay straight overnight after which you can apply signage, windows, weathering, etc., before assembly. 

jerrman

Couple of tips on Bar Mills kits:

Apply your bracing counter to the direction of the slating.

Pay attention to where you are placing your bracing so it does not interfere with components not yet placed - like interior ceilings.

I prime both sides at the same time - many light coats.

The windows are peel and stick. Determine which side is which before painting.

Consider using the peeling paint effect. Also after priming, consider placing streaked coats under your final coat - gives a nice worn look to your final paint - unless you are looking to represent new construction.

Take your time, follow the directions - which are usually pretty good. I built six of these kits with no previous experience - each went easier than the one before.

Also, don't get hung on on using the roofing provided. For as great as their kits are, Bar Mills is notorious for providing lousy roofing materials. - with only a couple of exceptions - Shipyard Brewing being one. I using alternate materials on most of my Bar Mills kits, including Grandt Line shingles.

Thanks so much to all of you. Each suggestion is detailed and supremely helpful.

I really appreciate your taking the time to help me step by step. I will post photos of my work.

Scrappy

Gimme a call if you run into any sticking points.

Here is breakdown of building a similar kit http://www.ogaugehobbyist.com/...tep-saulenas-tavern/

Harry makes a key point about where you place the interior bracing. not only to allow for the roof fit, but it's important that you place the interior wall bracing not to close to the wall edge so that when you fit the walls at a right angle, the bracing doesn't interfere. you can always put in that final bracing when you are assembling the wall so it helps the right angle adhesion. or, just test measure the wall together (no glue) and put that corner molding where it will allow assembly and touch both walls. this isn't really a tip for bar mills but for any wood craftsman kit. 

jerry

Jerrman,

I have always wondered about the best way to brace the corner angle.

I have a 90 degree clamp and have glued a 1/4" stock first to one side and then tried to attach the other wall. It always seemed hard to do.

Harry . . . . .   Thanks so much for that thread on Saulenas' Tavern. So informative !

Eliot

You can use a well made quarter square brace right up the inside corner when attaching two perpendicular walls. Use yellow glue which has a longer setting time. Glue on side of the quarter square to the inside wall right up to the edge and the do the adjoining wall to the same quarter square. Then place your outside vertical trim piece. If the fit isn't quite right, you can monkey with it until it is as the yellow glue will allow you to slide the pieces until everything is square.

I'm always mad at myself when I forget to leave room for the wall. getting off that bracing is pretty frustrating. what I mostly do is either mark where the bracing should be based on a dry fit or just glue the sections and then install that final brace for rigidity. since the walls will have a little play before you install that final one, you should have no problem using the right angle clamp and then when mostly dry, adding the brace. even after drying you can easily do it, since until that fourth final wall is in there is some give. one of the benefits of working with wood. you should have fun with the kit as Art makes some of the best. he's is also a great guy, really stands behind his products and is always there to help. and if by some chance, some piece is missing, he will replace it, no questions asked. work slowly, read a few paragraphs ahead all the time to make sure the instruction sequence is correct and you will be highly pleased with the results. 

jerrman

I think a series of those is forthcoming for Shipyard Brewing, Earl's Oil, Bud's Texaco, Buster Barber Shop, Wicked Wanda's and an expansion of Saulenas. Might want to check back in the coming months. I have on good information there are several hundred pictures of those builds.

Yes and Yes.

The few times I have ever encountered a problem, Art ALWAYS takes the call. Further, I had an instruction booklet missing from one kit, had a pdf in my email in minutes.

I wish they would do a couple of things:

Provide better roofing materials;

Sell their windows as separate sale items;

Bring back their billboard kits;

Offer more products in "O."

Many of their instructions are based on HO kits, and they have done an exceptional job of updating them - in most cases. Saulena's being a real exception. They instructions are poor and since the kit has been around so long, it is one of the last to be updated.

Mr. Scher,

The reason that the walls warp when you paint them is because you are painting only one side. When the paint dries, it shrinks. If you paint both sides you can avoid this problem. I have warped plastic by painting one side. Most of the time it does not matter. Bracing will help. I thought I could avoid all the problems with gluing and painting wood by going to plastic, but all materials have some kind of problem.

Alan Graziano

I always paint the inside of any building with black acrylic since I typically add lighting to my structures (mostly scratch-built). When building with basswood, I always add 1/8" square framing/support around the entire building perimeter. In my experience this helps to reduce the amount of warping after painting and helps to strengthen the overall building. Since most of my structures are built to look old, I first stain the outside with an alcohol and India Ink wash and then drybrush or sponge-apply paint (usually a faded hue) after.

Well, I use the Colorplace primer on all of my lasercut wood structures, none of which are braced except as provided for in the instructions and kit contents.  But I've always done so for two reasons, neither of which is to minimize further warpage.  The first reason is to provide a uniform base color onto which the final color will be applied.  That gives a more uniform appearance to the final color.  Without that primer coat, I've found that variations in woodgrain color and density will affect the color coat.  Ergo, the paint will have a macro woodgrain appearance.

The second reason, more important to me, is that the gray primer provides an aged wood appearance when the final color is scratched/sanded through for simulated weathering.  I like the effect.

But for final coloring, I ALWAYS use acrylics on the wood stuctures and cars.  No warpage.  Reason: I have two hangers on the side of my spray booth...one for the airbrush, the other for a small, inexpensive pistol-type hairdryer.  As soon as I spray an acrylic coat on wood, I switch from the airbrush to the hair dryer to eliminate as quickly as possible most of the water from sitting on and soaking into the wood. I spray the color in light coats, followed by use of the hairdryer, and have never had a noticeable warpage problem. 

BTW, my understanding of the wood/water warpage issue is different from that stated above.  I was told by a finishing carpenter that the warpage comes from water absorbed into a wood surface which causes it to expand relative to the opposite dry surface.  This creates a stress throughout the wood cross-section that is somewhat relieved when the water final dries (i.e., the 'wet' surface will indeed shrink back somewhat) but the stress through the grain has created a lasting memory and some warp will remain.  If you posessed incredible skill, you could, in theory, probably 'unwarp' the wood duplicating the process on the opposite surface.  Most of us have no such skills...which leads to the easy way out to induce counter-stress: bracing.

But, TEHO, I say...  Whatever works best for you, use it.

KD

The Bar Mill Salunas Tavern kit, unprimed, painted with good ol' Floquil (exterior only) around 8 years ago or so:

The pictures were taken shortly after I finished the structure, but there's still no sign of warping.

Rusty

That's what my experience was back when I made furniture and did restoration work.  And, it follows through to wood kit building.

I see little or no warpage in any of the models or kits that I build when using Floquil. 

I'm building several BTS kits now and have been using Polly Scale.  I can watch parts warp while I'm painting them and painting both sides or all surfaces is slower than the warping that's taking place.  It's generally not a real problem and I can persuade everything into place.  However, there was one part that sucked up paint like a sponge and warped almost beyond recovery.  When I got to that same part in the 2nd kit, I put a coat of sanding sealer on it - no warping at all when using Polly Scale.

I have only built one wood structure, so my experience is limited. I painted both sides of each wall with Rustoleum Light Gray Auto primer first.  The color coats were Polly Scale Acrylics. I had no problem with warping at all.

"Ridiculous".  "Stoopid".  "Off the Hook".   I could keep regurgitating modern day colloquialisms in an attempt to describe how good this is and I still couldn't hope to capture the utter perfection in this one simple scene.  It literally feels like I am there. 

Posted by brr (and some others):

Head to Wal-mart and by the Color Place $1.00 gray primer. Spray

I went to 2 Wal-marts Saturday and neither has a paint called "color place".  They have a generic cheap brand but it merely says "Spray Paint" on the can.  It does have a primer color can.  Is that "Color Place"?

thanks - walt

walt, maybe they changed the brand name, or eliminated it, but i think their private brand of spray paint which runs about $1.25 a can is the only one they have.  otherwise they have rustoleum, etc which is 3x as much. I have bought gray primer, flat black and white for this price. 

jerrman

thanks jerrman. the 'generic' cans are blue and are priced around a buck 30.

I'll assume they are the same.

thanks

h-m-m, I don't remember it being blue, but if it's the only cans at that price it is probably the same. maybe the paint person knows. one thing you can be sure of, if it's in wal-mart, it's cheap stuff, but in this case "cheap" works because it sprays very thin, which is what you want. just keep the can moving as you spray, going past the item on both sides so you don't get any build-up or drips. stay at least 12-15" away. makes a very light and even base coat. 

jerrman

I have used the 'blue canned' generic Wal-Mart paint to spray a few things in the past, and, yes, sometimes I wonder if there's really paint in the can

I've never seen a 'paint person' in Wal-Mart but since they sell paint obviously there has to be someone to ask.

thanks - walt

"Color Place" at Wal-Mart no longer displays the name "Color Place/Space".

They have 98% Krylon. I had to ask an associate and they gave me the generic shaker spray can which just says spray paint. That's the "Color Place." It was about $1.30

Krylon will work just like the Color Place or generic primers, it's just more expensive. All you're really wanting to do is seal the part with something fast-drying. The longer those walls are wet the more prone they are to warping.

Wal-Mart is always changing the labels on their generic brands, or moving them to somewhere else in the store. You get used to looking for a certain something and they change it. It's almost like they don't want you to find it.

Makes no sense to me. 

Thanks Eliot.  That's what I saw too.

Even the BarMills videos tell you to use the cheap gray primer from Walmart.  I have started a BarMills and have applied the primer and primary color with no warpage.  I did brace the backs of the walls and applied the primer and primary color in multiple light coats of paint.

Its always best to do painting and weathering sparingly.  You can always add more later on.