Questions for PRR Historians!

Phil:

Bob Bartizek is one of the more knowledgeable PRR historians here on the Forum and hopefully will come across this thread and respond.

I’ll take a stab at the most common cabin paired with an H10 in 1940’s era Pittsburgh and say it’s probably the N6B. I’ve not seen any photos of an N6B cabin with a train phone antenna but, that’s not to say with certainty that some weren’t so equipped.

By the 1940’s; I have my doubts whether H10’s were used in passenger service but, if they were, it would most likely have been on secondary lines or branches when the normally assigned passenger engines weren’t available.

Curt

I agree with above, an N6B or maybe an N5/N5B.    At that time, there be no N5C (portholes), or N8s.    They either new or recently built.    Also the Black roofs and yellow handrails were not started until about 1947.   Cabooses before and during WWII would entirely freight car color including all roofs.    Handrails and and grabs would be body color.    

An H10 would never have been normally assigned to passenger service as far as I know.    I have never seen photos or written references to them being assigned.    However, some may have been back up power for passenger jobs, if the assigned power broke down.     All RRs had "protect" power at various places that could fill in if the assigned passenger power was disabled.    An H10 could and would probably be assigned for this.    So the excuse to run an H10 exists but it would not be considered common.

I have never seen a photo of an N6B with trainphones.    

Some H9s were used in local Phila. passenger service. Although the H series had a top speed of only 50 mph, they were able to "dig in" and get up to speed fast...a plus for the many stops in passenger service. A H10 did pull a passenger "fan trip" in 1947. This all from "Pennsy Power" book.

The following website has photos of very many H10s.    I looked at a bunch and saw no trainphones.    You access it and look at them all on the chance of finding one.   Most are 3/4 view from the front so it is hard to see the tender deck.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/prr_steam4.html

Some H10s were fitted with steam heat lines on their tenders for passenger service during WWII so that they could pull troop trains; 7688 is an example of this. 

Follow up:

Here in the southeast corner of Pa, H-class steam locomotives worked freight on the Octoraro Branch once larger locomotives replaced them from mainline service. From research I've done, the daily passenger trains along the line were handled by E5's and G5's. I know the G5's were abundant in the Pittsburgh area for commuter service as well. Here is a good album on Facebook that I've found containing pictures of pictures of steam on the Octoraro Branch:

https://www.facebook.com/grego...401733517&type=3 

Not sure if Greg is an OGR member by any chance(?) He has some great albums of PRR during the steam era. 

PRR7688,

Your Facebook link above doesn't work; page that opens says requested page not available or moved.  Do you have a better link?

Chuck

Very good info being presented here.  I agree that the N5/N5b as well as the N6 would be the correct caboose for an H10. 

It was not common, but on rare occasions PRR did use freight locomotives on passenger trains.  I have a photo of a L1 pulling a Jersey shore summer train sometime in the 30's or 40's as I recall.  There was no need for heating.  Knowing how the "Standard Railroad of the World" was anything but in many cases, I could see an H8 or H9 subbing for a short local out of Pittsburgh. 

Just a question, as I am not as knowledgeable on PRR Lines West.  Didn't that territory officially start at Crestline, OH or was the division more practically divided at Pittsburgh? Furthermore, the H10 was almost exclusively used on Lines West as I recall?

@PRR1950 posted:

PRR7688,

Your Facebook link above doesn't work; page that opens says requested page not available or moved.  Do you have a better link?

Chuck

That's the best link I have; it worked when I clicked it  

Here's a second attempt, I linked the first photo of the album instead of the entire album: https://www.facebook.com/photo...p;type=3&theater 

I actually was able to find a picture of an H9 pulling a passenger special on the Newtown Square Branch!

According to the caption this is an NHRS special.

https://digital.hagley.org/AVD...r0gbCNnZM6V6pLei-dxo 

There's a few more pics of H9's with passenger trains in the Newtown Square Branch FB group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/615320025748688/

Lines West was Lines West of Pittsburgh.    The original Pennsylvania RR ran from Philidelphia to PIttsburgh.   From Pittsburgh West they made arrangements and then took control of the Pittsburgh Ft Wayne & Chicago which terminated in Allegheny PA, that is now the North Side of the city of Pittburgh across the Allegheny River from Downtown.    That line ran to Chicago.

The other line from Pittsburgh was the Panhandle officially something like the PCC& Stl   Pittsburgh, Columbus (maybe Cleveland) and St Louis.    

The H10 was built for Lines West as mentioned above.   But after (or even during) WWII) migrated all over the system.     The H8 and H9 were LInes East engines.    The biggest difference in the class was that the H8 had inside steam delivery pipes and 25x28 inch cylinders, the H9 had outside steam pipes and 26x28 cylinders, and the H10 had 27x28 inch cylinders.   From what I read the boilers and other specs were the same.    Over the years some H8 were converted to H9 and some H9 were converted to H10.    

The Pennsy Power book, mentions also that a few H10 had trainphones - but no more information.

Thank you all for the great info! Reason I’m asking these questions is I just picked up an MTH H10s and was curious about possibly adding some of MTH’s woodside passenger cars since they’re cataloged again, but it appears they’re decorated for the Pennsylvania Limited. Maybe some more generic PRR cars are a better fit?

Also still curious about the trainphone system. Anyone know if the PRR would pair trainphone-equipped cabs only with Locomotives equipped the same way or if it would be plausible to run an H10s with such a cab.

I did do enough research to know that some H10s lasted to the end of steam on the PRR around 1957 but I was looking to build more of a WWII era train so that’s why I’m asking.

Thanks again!

Wooden coaches wouldn't be appropriate if you're focusing on the WWII-era. Unless of course you're focusing on some backwoods out-of-the-way branch line or are just freelancing it (it's your railroad, after all).  I have in one of my photos folders a picture of an H10 pulling a P70 coach, so as others have pointed out a consolidation pulling a passenger train has been documented to happen. Golden Gate Depot's P70s are great models, you can find single cars floating around eBay every now and then.

I'm not sure of exactly what is meant by "trainphone", but I do know that it could not have been what we call a telephone.  The PRR tried using radio, I don't know with what degree of success.  I do know from experience out on the railroad that even in the early 60's radio was not a reliable means of communication.  It could be useful around yards, like for arrival track assignments, but any radio use had to be limited.

By trainphone I mean the PRR’s system for communication before actual radio, which can be identified by the large antennas on various PRR equipment. There is a good Wikipedia article about it. Per that article the system only had a range of a few hundred feet. Certainly most trains including those pulled by H10s would be longer than that, so unless there’s more info I’ll go with yes, caboose equipped w/trainphone can be run with an H10.

For your passenger cars I would suggest a Weaver / now Lionel B60 baggage, a GGD BM70 for mail service and a GGD P70 coach.  A pretty common setup for a PRR branch line train.  Head end made the money, not the passengers. 

Another classic photo in last yeasrs Audio-visual designs calendar shows a K4 with two RPOs, a baggage between, and a P70 on the rear on some single track territory in Ohio somewhere.  Just proves that you don't need a long train to have an accurate one.

GG1 4977 is right.  Get the BROADWAY out of your mind.  Most PRR passenger trains were a few head end cars and a coach or two.  Perfect layout sized trains.

Not steam, but I run a Doodlebug, B60, and an R50.  Interesting combo.

Phil,

Stephen and Jonathan mentioned the GGD P70 coach.  These are 21" models.  If you want a shorter car, Lionel released some of its 18" PRR coaches with 4-wheel trucks to simulate a P70 coach.  These also do not have the stripes so they would better fit the WWII era into the late 50s.  Took one out of the box to show you.

Thanks everyone!

Ron, yeah I’ll be looking at smaller cars. Thanks for the photo! 

Jonathan's consist recommendation for a 2-8-0 headed passenger run was an excellent one.  The PRR used 2-8-0's on a Tyrone and Clearfield branch daily 2 car local up to WWII.  The train typically was made up with a BM70 RPO and a P70 coach.  Though my railroad is circa 1952, I run such a consist as it adds interest to operations and contrasts with the blue ribbon fleet passenger trains passing through Tyrone on the Middle Division.  

With regard to PRR's inductive Trainphone System see Wikipedia for a little more info.  The PRR did not extend the system network wide and steam locomotives and cabin cars assigned to lines west of Pittsburg generally were not equipped with Trainphone antenna gear (cases in  point N1, N2, Q1, Q2, S1, S2 locomotives).  In the post WWII era as diesels came into service traditional steam locomotive assignments were altered so at times Trainphone equipped steam ran west and some non-Trainphone steam moved east.  Historical PRR locomotive and cabin car assignment documents can be found on the internet that identify whether or not a specific locomotive or cabin car  is Trainphone equipped.  I don't recall seeing an H class locomotive listed with the TP notation - if one did it would likely have been for a special assignment like work train service??    

Update - I found a PRR March 1952 M.P. 229 locomotive assignment document on the internet and a single H10 is listed as Trainphone equipped - #9963.  I'd like to see a photo of it - especially the tender.  The other non-Trainphone equipped H10's assigned to the Middle Division would be commonly found hauling local freights on the Middle Division trailed by Trainphone equipped steel cabin cars. 

The various PRR H classes were the GP7 and 9's of the steam era.  Could switch, local, passenger, snapper (helper).  Do have the MTH RK H, and I like it.  Not a K4s, but feels right on my layout.

Thanks Ed!

I picked up a MTH N8 caboose with a trainphone  lettered for the Pittsburgh division. I know it’s a later model (1950+) but now I know I can run it with my H10 since some H10s lasted to the end of Steam and also per the trainphone article, the system only had a range of a few hundred feet, so I’m assuming the system was not used to communicate from locomotive to caboose and vice-versa of the same train? Would I be correct on that? Therefore this consist is plausible.

@NSPhil posted:

Thanks Ed!

I picked up a MTH N8 caboose with a trainphone  lettered for the Pittsburgh division. I know it’s a later model (1950+) but now I know I can run it with my H10 since some H10s lasted to the end of Steam and also per the trainphone article, the system only have a range of a few hundred feet, so I’m assuming the system was not used to communicate from locomotive to caboose and vice-versa of the same train?

From what I remember, that was not the case. The PRR "Train Phone" system communicated with a line-side wire system, thus the locomotive crew talked to whomever by way of the line side system. Thus, there was no actual direct locomotive to caboose arrangement, but not to say the locomotive could not call the caboose byway of there line side  system.

Would I be correct on that? Therefore this consist is plausible.

Don't forget, you will have to add the "Train Phone" antenna/piping system on the tender.

PRR7688,

Thanks, the new Facebook links work now.

Chuck

Great thread!!!

George

Correction     Only a handful of  PRR H class locomotives were equipped with Trainphone gear.  Running in local freight service on a Trainphone wired main (such as the Middle or Pittsburgh Divisions) a non-Trainphone H9 or H10 crew would not be able to communicate with the crew in a Trainphone equipped cabin car -  while heavier road freight power crew in locomotives with Trainphone tenders could talk with the rear end via the system.  Crews riding locomotive and cabin cars equipped with Trainphones could also talk with towermen in Trainphone territory.    Apparently PRR management didn't value this capability enough to invest in upgrading the aging H8/9/10 fleet of locomotives in the post WWII era.  Note that the majority of diesels in PRR mainline service in the 1950's were equipped with Trainphone gear.  The system had its weaknesses and was phased out of operation in the early 1960's in favor of radios.  The last PRR EMD power delivered with Trainphone antennas were the GP30's - while the GP35 were not so equipped. 

I got a Question I've been meaning to ask.....Its T1 Duplex related......

Where is the Blowndown exhaust and or mufflers located??? 

Does it blow behind the cab under the tender?? or Does it shoot out the sides by the Cab/Ash Pan??

I've emailed the T1 Trust and they never got back to me. I just need a general location.

Ed,

if all but a very small handful of H class locos had trainphone gear, why are there not photos in the various books?

prrjim,

Please re-read Ed's correction.  He now says that only a handful of Class H engines had Trainphone gear.  And, if I remember correctly, the visible gear was mostly located on tender decks, not very photogenic location.  Maybe that's why few or no pictures exist.

Chuck

Thanks for the catch on my awkward wording  - correction made.  I'm still looking for a picture of an H9 or H10 with a Trainphone equipped tender.  To seek more info I made a post about H class Trainphone locomotives on the PRR@PRR.groups,io forum and learned some additional things about PRR Trainphone gear.  The common inductive Trainphone antenna gear we see on PRR steam and diesel locomotives was designed for 2 way communications.  But several locomotives in yard and hump service were equipped with receive only phones.  In PRR M.P.229 locomotive assignment documents these carry a "Y" designation, while the 2 way Trainphone locomotives carry a "T" notation.  Photos of receive only phone equipped steam  locomotives show round receiving coil antennae's mounted high on the boiler, with no antenna gear on the tender.    

Weaver H10 model.  Points west tender.   East of the Allgheny Mts. tenders could have been different.  

I believe Weaver did two cab numbers.  

Thanks again Ed and everyone for the great info. So I’d be correct in saying that while most H10 locomotives were not equipped with trainphone, it is plausible to have a caboose equipped with trainphone included in a train pulled by a H10? I wanted to ensure that those cabooses weren’t reserved only for trains pulled by larger locomotives with the corresponding equipment...

@NSPhil posted:

Thanks again Ed and everyone for the great info. So I’d be correct in saying that while most H10 locomotives were not equipped with trainphone, it is plausible to have a caboose equipped with trainphone included in a train pulled by a H10? I wanted to ensure that those cabooses weren’t reserved only for trains pulled by larger locomotives with the corresponding equipment...

Except, the caboose you decided on, an N8 with Train Phone, generally would NOT have been on the rear of a freight train pulled by an H10, shortly after WWII.

Not implausible in the1950's era.  The N8's were built 1950-51.   There is no PRR prototype practice discrepancy by having an H10 without Trainphone pulling a train trailed by a cabin car with Trainphone.  Enjoy..  

 In the post war years a number of lines West (of Pittsburgh) H10's were assigned to Lines East.  I have a Key H10 with a Lines West tender similar to Mike-CT's  Weaver model and did some research to see if an H10 like those ever served on territory east of Pittsburgh.  Although most H10's had rebuilt  tenders in the postwar era a few did retain their as built Crawford Hood Lines West tenders - and dated photos document some served in the east.  I found a  color photo of H10 9943 on the Pittsburgh Division main at Latrobe, PA in August, 1950.  I'd post the shot but don't know how to credit it.  

@Hot Water posted:

 

Trainphone could use a trackside wire or the track.  I have heard the PRR did use the track, but could be a myth.  Handhelds:  forget it.  But even early "potable" radios for the 160 Mhz band was like carrying a bowling ball all day.  Big and heavy.

TP could not be used in electrified areas.  Last engines ordered with it were the GP30's;  GP35 cass did not have them.

Perfect! Thanks for clarifying! Now I know I can run pretty much any PRR type caboose. I’m sure I’ll eventually end up with one of each type made by the big three.

Two more questions about the Pennsy:

1) Does the term “western region” also refer simply to all lines west of Pittsburgh, or something else?

2) Was there a regional term for the line from Pittsburgh-Altoona area? Was this still considered the western region or did the central region begin at Pittsburgh?

The Western Region was basically west of Columbus, OH.  PRR "Lines West" was the term for everything west of Pittsburgh.  The Pittsburgh to Altoona line was known as the Pittsburgh Division within the Central Region.

This info is in the linked article below.  Click on the graphic in the middle of the page to see a chart you can read.

https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/...-divisions-1941-1968

Excellent, Thanks Bob!

One last question:

Is MTH’s model of the N5-C the same size whether you buy a RailKing or Premier? I know this is the case for the bay window caboose, I’ve looked at photos of both and can’t find any distinguishing features.