Quiz time & repair question

The squealing is probably coming from the armature bearing shown in your top photo.

It may take several light applications of oil to quiet it.

If it is still squealing after several light applications of oil, or if the squeal keeps returning after a short while then the bearing may need to be replaced.

The motor looks like it would fit a 2018 style steam engine.

Or 2016.

Bum  I have a 2056 that does the same thing a friend that knows postwar real well said the brush was bad he was right on the money.

Jeff

Motor needs new brushes.

.....

Dennis

bum,

Here's a list of Lionel Post War steam locomotives and tenders, which is what your motor is from.

The column to the right shows the wheel arrangements and when you click on the locomotive road numbers, in the left column, a color photo of the locomotive will appear and you will have to search further for the various tenders to appear, so you can have an idea of the locomotives which your motor comes from.

http://www.postwarlionel.com/steam.html

Ralph

Thanks to all of you for the replies.  I will try everything noted and will be back if it still is squealing.

Thanks again,

Bum

If the squealing goes away after oiling, then reappears the brushplate assembly will need to be replaced. The hole that the armature spins in as become enlarged and worn and that is causing the noise. 

The winner is both sides of the armature shaft a drop or two and it ended the squeal.  I put it on this morning and it stopped instantly and ran it again this evening and it is still quiet.

Thanks again for your help.

Nick

You also need to oil the axle bearings and the idler gear bearings (2).  As far as replacing brushes, the loco shows very little usage as the pick up rollers are not worn, so it is unlikely that the brushes are worn out.  You should use ordinary motor oil to lube things as it never dries out or becomes gummy.  

To create controversy, I oil the commutators and brushes of my locos using motor oil.  I have done this for several years with no problems.  The motor friction is lower when the commutator is oiled as most of the motor friction is due to the brushes.

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To create controversy, I oil the commutators and brushes of my locos using motor oil.  I have done this for several years with no problems.  The motor friction is lower when the commutator is oiled as most of the motor friction is due to the brushes.

I don't. Quality modern brushes are self lubricating.

While I have seen a few published recommendations to lubricate the commutator of small electric motors (such as those found in trains), most published materials advise against it.
One of the most common service issues on the Lionel train motors I have serviced are oil soaked brushes.

I think it depends on the oil used.  I use motor oil, and have done it for about 7 years with no problem.  I have a 2353 that has had the brushes oiled for about 5 years with no problem.  The oil does not block the electricity and if it did, you couldn't oil the driver axles or the pickup rollers.  

BTW, I don't believe everything Lionel says.  Lionel Lube is terrible for lubricating a loco as it gets hard.

I have been running trains for 63 years.  I have never replaced a brush, and I have some locos with many hours on them.  My 2353 wore out the pickup rollers and I had to replace them.  All of my locos run well, and some of them will run at about 7 volts on the track.  This is a clear indication of low current draw by the motor.  

Carbon brushes are impregnated with oil.  This was done soon after the invention of the brush type DC motor because the brushes were wearing very fast until the oil was added.  After the brushes are impregnated, they are heated to drive off the light ends of the oil.  

BTW, I am not going to put a dial indicator on the motor commutators.  Too much work.  I have about 100 locos, and I don't want to make my toy trains into a lot of work.  0.005" runout is pretty big, and is quite visible to the eye, so I think my eyeball check is good enough.  Sometimes, but not often, I will polish a commutator with a ScotchBrite pad, and that seems to work just fine.

BTW #2.  I am an electrical engineer and have 51 years of experience doing very high tech stuff for the military.

The oldest loco I have is a 152 made about 1925.  If I remember correctly, the brushes have copper in them.  The newer brushes don't appear to have copper in them.  If they don't have oil in them, that is a good reason to oil them.  Why don't you oil the commutator of one loco and test it and see what happens?  

My engineering experience has taught me not to believe anything until I either test it myself and/or get valid test data.  About a year ago, I restored 3 XYY analog plotters that I use with a piece of test equipment to record gain and phase vs. log frequency when I am making measurements on a servo.  I have had these plotters for about 30 years.  They were made in 1963.  I used motor oil to clean the linear pots that feed position back to the servo amplifiers.  Nothing I have used in the past worked as well as the motor oil.  This is not conventional wisdom.  I tested the plotters over several months, and they always worked very well.

For someone who cleans with military precision and care, oil may act to preserve and lube some brushes, plastic, and metal. But as oil penetrates and separates as it cleans, many substrates could be damaged with short or long term exposure to it. Im not an engineer, but have worked with many brushed motors from toy size to 20hp. Graphite is a great lube and conducts great too. And a graphite brush, I would imagine, would not last near half its expected motor life wet with oil fouling it. Oil also collects dirt before it can fall away by gravity or be thrown by centrifugal force and/or air currents. Catching graphite brush dust in the slots between the contact plates can cause lots of "fun" surprises. Acting like an invisible cold solder, off/on/voltage and/or amperage bouncing etc..  Heat, sparks, and oil bring about another issue, very doubtful on small stuff, but in theory possible,... fire! "Gunk" around the brushes can promote sticking, leading to poor contact, stray arcs, etc. Fire happens in big neglected motors with oil-well type bearings on occasion.  

 Dry brushes, and contacts for me. Oil is for penetrating/creeping between bearing like surfaces. Lube for "fling" prevention, high pressure, and high-heat viscosity stability. Excess oil always is avoided and/or re-cleaned quickly if badly applied.  

quote:

You may want to steer away from the repro brushes and buy good carbon brushes with 5 or 10 percent copper. This softens the brush, aids conductivity and reduces wear and tear on the commutator.

The 622 style brushes I like the best are some that I purchased from Madison Hardware when it was still in NYC. These brushes appear to be the ones MPC was using for a while. They have a copper tinge to them, a chamfer on one end, and no slot. They are very soft, and do wear quickly.

As far as reproduction / replacement brushes go:

I certainly have noticed a difference in quality over the years. Quite a few years ago I purchased an assortment of brushes from a parts dealer when they weren't all that easy to obtain (or so I thought). Those brushes were hard and brittle, so I never used any of them.

The replacement brushes I've purchased more recently do seem to be ok, with more of a silvery appearance, rather then being black or grey.
What brushes do you recommend?

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Lou had tubs of them at Madison, I just need to find out where they went.

After the Madison auction I purchased a bag full of 1001M-46 brushes and 1001M-47 springs from Town and Country Hobbies. They have a coppery appearance, and look like they are probably original factory parts. He also had some of those coppery colored brushes I previously mentioned. I took a look at mine to get the part number (8040-150). A lot of those brushes are slotted to catch the spring so they don't rotate.

So, are the silvery brushes made with PTFE OK?

They seem soft and slippery.

I think the confusion about oiling brushes and commutators stems from lack of data on which oils have been used.  Some months ago, one of the guys on one of the forums said he had trouble with oil on the brushes, but he didn't specify which oil.  I am sure that if a person were to oil his brushes and commutator with 3 in 1 oil, light machine oil, sewing machine oil, or anything but motor oil, he would get a bad result as the oil would evaporate very quickly and leave a gummy mess.  Frankly, I am a little surprised that the motor oil works so well.  I am going to continue to use it, and in 5-10 years we will have another discussion about oiling the brushes and commutator.