R2LC codes

Firmware versions on the board for different functions. There's a 13 too

Are they interchangeable to any degree?  

I think the RS upgrade kits came with an "8".  I replaced a 6 with an 8 for testing and it worked...

On thing about earlier ones before 08 is the lighting voltage polarity is different.  So if driving LED headlights you need to swap, leads. Otherwise No one really knows any more.  G

I believe that C11 and C13 were both introduced to fix issues with Odyssey speed control.  The C08 is kinda' the "universal" one that appears in a majority of TMCC locomotives. 

Is the R2 still available?  I purchased an AC Commander Kit from ERR and although their website states R2 they only provide R4s now.  the R4 from ERR is also code 08

Still listed as available from Lionel on their website. $40 vs. $54.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... but, my understanding is that R4 is backwards compatible.  I swapped my R4 08 with some of my R2s and it performed flawlessly... in all instances ... and, maybe better than the R2s.

I suppose Lionel isn't providing R2s to ERR anymore (ERR is owned by Lionel)  and is cleaning out the rest of their R2 stock?

I would definitely email support @ Lionel to make certain that they have the R2... their website (and ERRs) can be painstakingly out-of-date ...especially when it comes to parts.

The R4LC with the 08 firmware is 100% backward compatible with the R2LC-C08.  I use them interchangeably with no issues at all.  The R4LC has a larger memory capacity for the Legacy features, but when programmed with the -08 firmware, it's just a TMCC R2LC with a different number.

Wondering if I can substitute a R2LC-04 in place of a R2LC-08 ? The 04 came from an Alco PB unit with sound and eCouplers.  I would like to install it as a TMCC upgrade adding motors to an unpowered Atlas FM Erie built.  Anyone know if it can be substituted ?

I would say no.  The -04 is a very old unit, and a number of things have changed in the firmware.  It won't hurt to pop it in and see what happens, but I suspect you'll have some issues.  On the positive side, it shouldn't cook anything, I just think you'll have an issue.  What TMCC boards are you using in that upgrade?

John, I have a big stack of motherboards TAS, Digital Dynamics and Lionel I'm still in the Thinkin bout it mode.  Leaning toward using a TAS-SAW board with Lionel GENFM F  sound set. I robbed an 08 board off the SAW board some time ago and have an 04 board handy. Guess I will give it a try.

BTW; I've been working on a L3 Mohawk 18009 for some time now and have it up and running "ON THE CHEAP" I used an L2RU board that nestled so nicely in the boiler that I had to use it. I used the original RS 1 sounds and added an eCoupler on the tender. I have some old KTM 7pole universal motors did some cutting and filing and managed to get one in it without cutting the backhead out. It is a great low speed improvement  over the Lionel Pullmor however it has a bit of a noise problem caused by the armature interacting with the steel ash pan. It is running with about 2mm clearance and generates a lot of cogging noise when the ash pan is in place. Remove the pan and 80-90% of the noise goes away. Perhaps the trailing truck retaining stud is playing a role in the noise and will need replacing.  I'll make replacements for the stud and ash pan from some non-ferrous metal when the mood strikes me.  I think this is a problem with all the Lionel steamers that use Pullmor motors and PWM makes it worse. I notice that the problem is no where near as bad with the diesels, which don't have a sheet metal ash pan near the motor. I keep seeing folks refer to this noise as gearbox noise but the gearbox remains when I remove the ash pan. I think perhaps that cogging does load and unload the gears some at low speeds but I don't think that is generating significant noise.  J

The R4LC does not work with all serial Smoke AC regulators.

Carl Tuveson posted:

The R4LC does not work with all serial Smoke AC regulators.

You sure?  Did you mean the R2LC-04 perhaps?  The R4LC with the appropriate R2LC firmware should be a drop-in replacement.  I've never had the R4LC-C08 not function with the TMCC smoke regulators.

The R4LC-08  used in a AF Mikado or Pacific will not address the smoke regulator. Something to do with the serial timing.

That's interesting Carl, never ran into that using the R4LC.  What does Jon Z. have to say about that, did you ask him?  I wonder why the serial timing would be different?

Jon told me it was the timing issue. Something to do with the added bit. ( I think)Also the ERR Cruise lite only works properly with a R4LC-08.  

I've done over 20 AF Mikado conversions using the Cruise Lite and this is how I ran into the issue.  I use the Smoke Feature Triac to control the smoke and change the element to 30 ohms to compensate for no smoke regulator.

Thanks for that little pearl Carl, I didn't realize there was a problem there.  Oddly, I have used the smoke regulator in a couple of TMCC upgrades, mostly as an experiment, and they worked fine.

I'm a bit confused about the "added bit" comment, with the R4LC is programmed with the C08 code, it sends 8 bit data, not nine bit data.  I think I'll have to ask Jon about that comment, there may be something I still don't understand about the difference between the R2LC and the R4LC, even programmed with the same code base.

FWIW, I put an R2LC-C08 into a CC-Lite on the bench and it appeared to work.  I didn't connect a smoke regulator, but the motor control, lighting, and smoke outputs worked as expected, and it had no issue controlling the RailSounds Commander.

The R2LC in the Cruise Lite had motor driver issues if I remember correctly.
It did weird things intermittently. I was trying to get the smoke regulator to work using the R2LC. 

Mine was a quick test, I'll have to pop one into one of the locomotives I have a CC-Lite in and see if it works.  Lots of little oddities with these products.

LOL...  There seems to be more and more conflict swapping hardware.  My last several installs all had issues with different levels of integration.  Keeping ERR with ERR and TMCC with TMCC seems to be the only conflict clear way to do this.  Otherwise potential issues can arise.  An quick bench test won't find it.  I have seen engines operate for several minutes and then after that degrade to the point of stopping with no control.   Wait 15 to 20 minutes and they work fine for the next 5 minutes and than repeat.   G

Four of the S gauge Mikado's Carl mentioned above are on my layout, plus two of the Pacifics. The TMCC S gauge light Mikado's and the Pacifics were made with Seuthe smoke units so Carl had to replace these with modern fan driven smoke units as part of the upgrades. Carl also replaces the original motor since it needs to be relocated on the chassis and a flywheel is not needed with the new Cruise boards. The end result is better than any of the original Lionel S gauge steam engines except the Legacy Y-3. It seems to me there are some differences in the factory installed equipment between O and S gauge.

Tom, the factory is using a back-EMF board for AF stuff, similar to the Cruise Commander.  It "should" be similar in performance, but we all know how that works.

Hey fellas,

Here are the highlights on R2LC codes;

C04, these were the first R2LC's produced. They were designed for the semi scale pacific and mikados, will do strobe light, smoke on/off (diesel), steam with mechanical smoke unit (reduces smoke output in idle to prevent element from overheating without airflow), pretty limited in its capabilities, as it was essentially the first code version released. If you find a loco with one in it and its bad, replace with a C08.

(There is a special C04 out there that is specifically programmed for aquarium cars, giraffe cars, etc. Has to do with the electroluminescent panel in these cars, must request from Lionel as a special order piece)

C05 - backshop only

C06 - was designed for GG-1's (resolved some sort of noise/timing issue. If found bad replace with C08.

C07 - headlight outputs have a DC overlay on them reverse of what it is on the C08 version, allows you to upgrade command ready C-420's without swapping the headlight leads. Was created to fix a backwards lighting issue with an entire production run. Only use in C-420's, not recommended for other locos.

C08 - By far and away the most stable code for just about every TMCC 1 loco made by every manufacturer. This version of code is also available on newer R4LC's such as those that come from Electric RR. With the exception of aquarium cars and C-420's this version of code works in just about every TMCC 1 loco ever made. 

C09 - never released

C10 - never released

C11 & C12- only found in Lionel locos, had issues with lash ups if found in a loco replace with a C13.

C13 - the code version used to correct problems with C11 & C12's (not really sure what all it does, found in a limited number of locos just before the R4LC came into fruition. 

Hope that insight helps a little?

Thanks,

Mike

Thanks, Mike!

Helps a lot Mike. 

Do you have any insight into what Carl is talking about with the R4LC with the 08 firmware not being compatible with the TMCC voltage regulator?  I'm not sure I understand why that would be so, that's why I ask.

To add to Mikes list, the early Harriman UP and SP 2-8-0's also used a CO7, can use a CO8 if marker light leads are reversed. I thought the CO6 version was also used in the culvert loader and unloader?

 I had one issue once with a R4LC08 as a replacement in a Atlas SW1200 switcher instead of a R2LC08. The smoke unit would work in command, but not in conventional.

I just confirmed test results with several R4LC-08s and AC regulators from the Lionel/AF Mikados and Pacifics 691-ACRG-E01 (6408036025).  Some were on all the time and some were off all the time but no control with the Cab-1.  Other type AC Regs worked OK but I did not test all types. 

These AC Reg boards were early types.
This is the jig used for testing:

Are you sure your not mixing TMCC and Legacy AC Regs?  And Lionel R4LC are Legacy either S01/03/05 code.  ERR uses R4LC hardware but it has C08 code.

So ACREGs at a minimal need to correspond to the type of R?LC  either TMCC code, or Legacy code. G

The R4LC-08s (TMCC) and AC regulators (TMCC) from the Lionel/AF Mikados and Pacifics 691-ACRG-E01 (6408036025). These do not play well together.

Pretty sure my experiments were done with the 691ACRGF04     AC REG / SUPER SMOKE (04 CODE), I ordered three of these last year at the 1/2 price parts sale.  I've used a couple of them for repairs, somewhere around here I should still have one.

I agree that one will work  with the R4LC-08 per my tests. 

However the Cruise Light would not talk to the 691ACREGF04 or any other regulator?         

That is why I  did not use the regulator in my conversions.  This when Jon said it may be a timing issue ?

Very odd Carl, but I guess your tests don't lie.  Good to know, I'm going to be careful what I order.

What I would do is not use the ERR board to control smoke but rather direct solder to the appropriate connector pin for smoke from the R2LC.  The buffers and isolation that ERR uses seems to play weird with certain TMCC components especially sounds.  I no longer use the serial output on the Cruise CDR for anything but ERR Sound boards.  I get serial data direct from the R2LC when retaining an original RS 4.0 set.  G

Is there anybody that buys bad R2LCs? I just had another go bad. When I tossed it in the box of bad ones I saw there was now 7 of them. After 20 years and about 40 engines I don't know if this is a normal ratio or not. 

There is also a C01 code for the early Alco PA's from around 2000. But it wasn't a separate board, but a complete modular platform like the early TMCC GP9's.

Lionel recommends replacement board for obsolete radio boards in the aquarium and giraffe cars 691-R2lc-c07 version.

FWIW, I am not a big fan of the AC Regs in TMCC locos. Whenever I find a reg not working I typically remove it and replace it with a 27 Ohm element off pins 5&6 on the R2LC, smoke on/off switch in the mix too of course. The fewer the components in a loco to go wrong the better! 

I have not had much experience with the R4LC - C08's so I cannot comment as to what it does and doesn't work with (sorry).

Thanks,

Mike

Mikado posted:

Hey fellas,

Here are the highlights on R2LC codes;

C04, these were the first R2LC's produced. They were designed for the semi scale pacific and mikados, will do strobe light, smoke on/off (diesel), steam with mechanical smoke unit (reduces smoke output in idle to prevent element from overheating without airflow), pretty limited in its capabilities, as it was essentially the first code version released. If you find a loco with one in it and its bad, replace with a C08.

(There is a special C04 out there that is specifically programmed for aquarium cars, giraffe cars, etc. Has to do with the electroluminescent panel in these cars, must request from Lionel as a special order piece)

C05 - backshop only

C06 - was designed for GG-1's (resolved some sort of noise/timing issue. If found bad replace with C08.

C07 - headlight outputs have a DC overlay on them reverse of what it is on the C08 version, allows you to upgrade command ready C-420's without swapping the headlight leads. Was created to fix a backwards lighting issue with an entire production run. Only use in C-420's, not recommended for other locos.

C08 - By far and away the most stable code for just about every TMCC 1 loco made by every manufacturer. This version of code is also available on newer R4LC's such as those that come from Electric RR. With the exception of aquarium cars and C-420's this version of code works in just about every TMCC 1 loco ever made. 

C09 - never released

C10 - never released

C11 & C12- only found in Lionel locos, had issues with lash ups if found in a loco replace with a C13.

C13 - the code version used to correct problems with C11 & C12's (not really sure what all it does, found in a limited number of locos just before the R4LC came into fruition. 

Hope that insight helps a little?

Thanks,

Mike

Are there any negative effects on using a R2LC07 in place of a R2LC08 in a basic engine? Headlight and rail sounds only, and primary operation will be conventional. The headlight is a normal incandescent bulb. I am using a 691-PCB1-0B9 motherboard. This is a project for a friend of a friend. I don’t want to lose my R2LC08 and they have a R2LC07. 

SPFord27 posted:

Are there any negative effects on using a R2LC07 in place of a R2LC08 in a basic engine? Headlight and rail sounds only, and primary operation will be conventional. The headlight is a normal incandescent bulb. I am using a 691-PCB1-0B9 motherboard. This is a project for a friend of a friend. I don’t want to lose my R2LC08 and they have a R2LC07. 

 

There shouldn't be, the incandescent bulb won't care about polarity.  You'll never know the difference.