Railsound's 4 TMCC Sound Upgrade

Getting a RS5 sound chip is probably not going to happen, they still want an exchange for most of those.  You can always try...  Finding a RS5 articulated board from a forum member or on eBay would be the easy way, just plug it in.  Of course, they don't come along often...

 

I have yet to try to put the ERR RS5 board into a locomotive with a wireless tether, so I can't really say exactly how complicated that might be.  I'm sure it's possible to get it working, but it may not be uncomplicated. 

 

Getting it to work with the wireless tether is going to require more than the simple installation that you usually do with the ERR boards.  You have to connect to the IR receiver board.  I can be done, but I'd check with ERR to see if they have some instructions on how to accomplish it.

 

Hearing the sound is easy, ERR has all the sounds posted on their RailSounds Commander order page.

 

Here's a direct link to the Steam RailSounds Articulated series

It should not be a problem using the ERR RS5 kit with a tender with wireless tether. You would have to keep the motherboard and wireless interface board which coverts the serial signal on the photo diode/transistor on the drawbar to a voltage to drive the ERR board. Maybe the audio power board as well if it supplies the power to the wireless tether board. I can check manuals tonight if you decide to go that route.

Lionel has offered a few RS5 audio boards for sale but AFAIK all are engine specific so even if you could find one for a Challenger for sale it would likely have a announcements for a different cab number. The ERR board will be generic with no RR or cab number mentioned.

 

Pete

Pete, I know that I could install it, but I don't like to minimize the installation issues for other folks unless I know if they have the skills to do the job.

Thank you everyone for the replies. To make it a little more difficult Alex Mullae upgraded this engine to four chuffs per revolution, added a speaker in the engine shell with a wired tether between the loco and tender, and upgraded the smoke unit. Will that make this more difficult? Also, would it be possible to add chuffing smoke to the engine while I'm at it?

Thanks,

Mathew

I just listened to the articulated sound clip from ERR and it's pretty close to what the challenger sounds like, the only thing that sounds off to me is the bell but it's still better then the swinging bell sound the RS4 chip currently has (all the challengers had air powered clappers) and the whistle kind of sounds like a Hancock 5 chime of some sort. I checked the Lionel parts site and it looks like I'm SOL on getting a RS5 chip directly from them so ERR might be the only way to go.

Thanks,

Mathew

Adding the Super-Chuffer will give you chuffing smoke, and you could also have Rule-17 lighting and cab light control.

 

Here's the pinout of the AD20A IR Decoder, you can pickup the serial data on pin 24 of this chip in the tender.  The center rail and wheels are also on pins 1-2 and 3-4.  Those are all the inputs you should need for the ERR RS Commander with the 5.0 sounds.

 

 

 

Here's the connections possible for the ERR RS Commander.  Leave J1 blank, J4 goes to the speaker, J6 is the power connections, and J2 has the serial data and the common if frame ground.  The battery is optional at J7.

 

John,

Thanks for the reply. So what exactly would I need to purchase to make this all happen and how difficult would you say it is to do?

Thanks,

Mathew

Perhaps, but somewhat pointless in solving the OP's problem, I doubt he wants to wait to see if Lionel at some time in the distant future decides to sell inventory.

Bill, what happens with the Cruise M that causes the issue?  If the serial data is triggering the IR link and getting to the tender for the sounds, I'm having difficulty with why the same serial data won't be sensed by the RS5 board.

 

The RS4 boards are only half the story, you still need the Power Supply board and the motherboard. 

 

The ONLY RS5 board Lionel has posted for sale is one without the sound chip.  All the others say "must contact Lionel to order".

 

 

 

John,

 

  I think its old technology of the Cruise "M" versus the newer rs boards. 

 

Bill

The thing is Bill, the Cruise M only taps off the serial signal in the locomotive, but it doesn't interrupt the path.  When it goes back to the tender via the IR link, I'm having trouble seeing how it manages to run the RS4 board serial input but wouldn't run the RS5 board serial input with what I believe is essentially the same input circuit.

 

Am I missing something?

 

John,

 

   I have upgraded 3 K-line engines and one lionel with wireless tether.

 

1st K-line had all electronics in the tender, DCDR, RS Powerboard, R2LC and RS4. Rmoved DCDR RS Powerboard and RS4. Installed a Cruise "M" and new ERR soundboard. Engine runs fine, sounds start as in conventional and no control of bell or whistle. Ken at ERR suggested installing a diode in the serial to the sound board, perfect it works.

 

  2nd Engine sounds are in the tender, DCDR is in the engine. Replaced DCDR with Cruise "M" and installed new sound board in tender. Address engine Aux1 to start, sounds come up no problem. Turn red throttle engine races at brake neck speed. Unplug serial wire from sound board, sounds start in conventional engine runs like a champ. I replaced the Cruise "M" with a Cruise "M " for wireless tether and that cured the problem

 

3rd engine same as number 2.

 

 

The Lionel with IR tether might get a wired tether. With the new RS attached to the AD20 board the sounds start in conventional.

 

Now you are the EE so maybe you can figure out whats going on. 

 

 

Also the Cruise "M" worked as it was intended with the RS4.

 

I posted earlier about the the new sound board not working with the IR tether because I don't want someone reading these post and then purchase a board that might not work.

 

Bill

Thanks for the insights Bill, that is very interesting.

 

I suspect the only way to get to the bottom of this would be to have one of the problem combos in hand and see what is happening.

 

The biggest mystery to me is the IR tether not working.  If the serial data drives the RS4 sound board, I'm at a loss as to why it would have a problem with the RS5 board.

 

This sounds like a question for Jon Z. to start.  Perhaps he can illuminate why there would be a difference.

 

Bill, I had not noticed before that ERR makes two Cruise Ms for wireless tethers. What is the difference in the two?

 

Pete

I missed that, but I suspect the difference might be the serial interface components.  Maybe they changed the pull-up component value to minimize the impact of tapping the serial signal.  The diode that Bill mentions seems to suggest that might be an issue.

 

When ordering the Cruise M for steam with IR tether, you have to spec what version motherboard you have in the engine. Early versions of the M pulled the serial down too much when trying to run the m/b, sound board and IR/AD20 altogether, at least that's what I remember.

I wonder why they just didn't go with the lead load on the serial output, having two wireless tether models seems odd.  If it works, it could be the standard issue.

Going by memory, the serial comm in a stock IR tether setup is right on the hairy edge of being pulled down too much anyway. I was sent an external circuit or two to help but I don't think these worked until ERR developed the Ms they have now, which work awesome. 

I'll have to find out why they have multiple models.  If they changed the design not to load the serial input, one would think that would be the "standard" product.

 

Maybe it is for ACRG vs non-ACRG.

I just got a response back from Jon Z.

The AD20 inverts the serial data and has limited drive current to the RS Commanders.  This is an unsupported configuration.

We dont promote any wireless application in our manuals. Only wired connections are shown. The fix is to use a 2 pin tether for serial data.

I see a 2-pin tether for this conversion!  

If I were faced with this issue, I'd probably consider a tiny buffer board to invert the serial data and add some drive current.  A transistor or FET should do the trick.

That answers one question, sort of, but why two Cruise Ms for wireless especially in light of the fact that wireless is not promoted?? 

 

Pete

Pete, John

 

  ERR done away with the two Cruise "M" boards a couple of years ago and now only have one wireless tether board. Here is the schematic of the old kit. Maybe GRJ can design a new board that will work with the AD20.

 

 

Bill

Good question Pete.  My answer was taken out of context and pasted into this thread.  This makes me pause to decide never to answer any emails; and just post.

 

The Wireless tether from the Cruise M RESTORES the ORIGINAL configuration.  The RS commander is not designed to work in a wireless configuration, especially one that is modified.

 

The problem is we don't have a wireless tether input on the RS commander.  There are reasons for this, as you can see from this thread.  It can be done, but is a complicated adjustment to both the loco and tender ends of the connectivity.

 

The best is a wired configuration, with the right Cruise M board.  I do not believe we have any of the older Cruise M boards left that required a buffer transistor.  The buffer transistor supplied current for the IR emitter.  The fix is now present in the Cruise M hardware.

 

 

Jon, I'm sorry you feel I posted that out of context, the goal here is to understand what can and cannot be done and why.

 

I still don't understand why there are two wireless tether Cruise Commander M models on the order sheet, can you tell us what the difference is?  Is the difference just the cable mentioned in the installation instructions, or is there actually multiple versions of the CCM board?  Your post makes it sound like there is just a different cable for the two wireless configurations.

 

Is your statement still correct, the AD20 is not capable of driving the new RailSounds Commander board?  Is the problem both drive current and an inverted serial stream?

 

I think that most folks would obviously like any retrofit to use the wireless tether if that is possible, rather than having to add a tether.  That's why I'd like to solve the issue of how to connect to the AD20.

John,

 

   You must have a older order sheet. It's been two years since they quit using two wireless tether Cruise "M's" The new price has one wireless tether and a Odyssey Diesel.

 

Bill 

>>I still don't understand why there are two wireless

>> tether Cruise Commander M models on the order sheet

The order sheet is in need of an update, they are the same part as I indicated in my post above.

 

Please research the AD20 and see if you can give a solution to the OP.  We love it when folks take issues and solve them for the community.

 

Bill, I broached the subject after visiting Jon's website this morning. There still 4 Cruise M's listed including two for wireless tethers.

This has turned out to be an informative thread. I see fixes for both issues on the horizon.

 

Pete

Pete,

 

   I see what you mean, its on the products page and ordering. Being a dealer I have to use the order form under purchase. If you look at the order form you will see only one "M" for wireless tether.

 

Bill

I didn't go to the store and look at the order sheet, I just looked on the website and saw the two wireless versions, hence the question.

 

I think I understand what's going on now, so the next time I get one with the AD20, I'll take a look at it on the 'scope and see what happens with a RS5 board connected to it.  If it requires an inversion and current boost, or just a current boost, that would be simple if there's 5VDC available.  If not, a couple of extra parts would be needed to generate DC to power the circuit.

 

 

 

 

 

So am I okay just purchasing the Railsounds Commander kit even though I have a wireless (and wired) tether?

 

Thanks,

 

Mathew

Well, Jon Z. suggested a 2-pin wired tether to bring the RS serial to the tender, for your conversion, that's probably what I'd recommend.  If I were doing it, I'd roll myself a little board to use the wireless tether, but I'm going to have to scope out the situation when I get one to do before I could say exactly what is needed.