? re 3rd Rail ATSF FTs

Just ask Scott Mann, he'll know for sure.

The Santa Fe Freight FTs will be in the cat whisker scheme.  The promotional sketches were done in about 4 hours for all the schemes just to get them out for advertising in time so they are not 100% accurate.  The ATSF passenger graphics are a little off too.  That is being corrected on the painting diagrams that are in process now. 

Jonathan;

Thank you for the response...I had not heard back from 3rd Rail.  This is, for me, good news.

Would you know whether the ATSF B units will have the fifth porthole?

Again, thanks,

Allan

No.  Only the ATSF and Rio Grande of those being done were delivered with the 5th porthole.  It would have required different body molds for the two different B units.

Hopefully additional windows will be available so those that want to add it can do so.

Allan,

Depending on the number of pre-orders there is a chance this detail could be added, but I can't guarantee it.  Not to disagree with Richard because he knows FTs better than anyone, but If there are enough orders for SF and D&RGW FTs there is a possibility this feature could be added.  Scott is off to China ... again ... to check on the finished FP7s before they go on the container, but I will send him a note and see where order numbers are at.  

This would be a great feature and as I just got a copy of the "Warbonnet" issue that discusses the SF FTs from another forum member, No. 90, I can clearly see where this detail could be an added bonus.  The challenge is of course creating complexity for the factory which then creates additional cost.  Always a trade off. 

Jonathan

I fully expect the ATSF to be the most popular but as Jonathan said it depends on the numbers and more importantly what Scott can negotiate with the builders.  Scott told me there were only going to be 500 total units made.  That's 125 ABBA sets.  One run, that's it.  I certainly want the 5th porthole and I made sure Scott was aware of it.

It seems the issue is the complexity of the molds.  The builder keeps costs down by using fixed molds.  While it seems to me not to be too difficult or expensive to make a single mold with the 5th porthole and make X number of shells then machine off bung used for the porthole and then make the rest.  The builder will probably say otherwise.

The builders Scott uses for many of these project are not in the business of making model trains, it's only a sideline used to keep employees busy.  And they by and large do it on a break-even basis.  And, they are, lets say, not very good at projecting costs ahead of time.  And, Scott must make up any funding shortfalls at each milestone or else the project stops and might well just end there.   That is how Sunset was started by his father,  picking up someone else's project that was dying on the vine because the original importer refused to make up a funding shortfall.

I really wish he would do a clinic on all this at one of the major meets.  The entire Asian model train business is one sprawling Peyton Place. 

On a tangent, as you well know the FTs were the first fancy painted freight locomotives.  And many of those paint schemes changed significantly at least once in their lifetime.  So the question is, do you have a preference?  Me, I want only the as delivered.  Some of you may remember how well that went over for me with the Key E1s.

So the ATSF freight will be cat whiskers.  Thumbs up from me.  But are their now prospective reservers who only want the cigar band and will now pass?  It might take as few as 5 people willing to reserve only cigar band ABBA sets to get that added.  Reservations rule.

But, what about the ACL; purple and sliver as delivered or black and yellow?  WP; green and yellow as delivered or silver and orange?  Southern, black or green (I find it hard to believe any were done in green but...).  Erie, mostly black or the later with more yellow?  Seaboard, green and yellow citrus or green and yellow stripe or black and yellow?

Jonathan & Richard;

Again, thanks for the replies.

On the tangent, some of the ATSF FTs were painted solid blue (a steady downhill slide from cat whiskers to cigar band to blue).

"I really wish he would do a clinic on all this at one of the major meets.  The entire Asian model train business is one sprawling Peyton Place."

Reminds me of the series of articles John Smith did in O Scale News about his adventures as Pecos River Brass.

Allan

An old topic, but there is some new news to report.  The 5th porthole on the engineer's side of the B unit will be added for roads that had them.  Also, there is talk of doing the cigar band ATSF freight scheme.  What is the preference?  Original as delivered, cigar band or will there be enough orders for both?

Also, what about roads that are not listed that had FTs?  Any big missing road names that stand out?  I know NYO&W will be added to the list.  Just have to come up with some graphics for it.

WP green and yellow or Zephyr orange and silver.

Interesting there were enough requests for the NYO&W, that's cool!

Roads still not on the list.

Chicago & Northwestern

Rock Island

Lehigh Valley

Missouri Pacific

Minneapolis & St Louis

St Louis Southwestern

I for one am glad to see the 5th porthole will be on the ATSF units, as I have an ABBA on order.

Overland had stated in their newsletter on the SD70ACes that the builder had a minimum of 3 units for different paint schemes,while this may not be the case with Scotts builder its possible that only a small # of units reserved may make any wanted Road name done.

On another topic did Key finally make the as built version of the Santa Fe E1, at the time. I remember that topic being discussed.

Tut, tut - what about the Sonora-Baja California?  Weren't they the last railroad to have a running FT?

Refresh my memory on this. Where was the fifth porthole on the ATSF FT-B's? I know they were purchased without drawbars and had a hostler cab.

Right side in front of the regular 4 portholes

ATSF and SSW were the only ones to buy all their units with couplers between the As and Bs.  The MP, Southern and Rio Grande bought some of theirs with couplers so some of theirs do have the 5th porthole and some don't.

Thanks.

Anybody have pics of the 5 porthole FT B units?

EXCELLENT Santa Fe FT info here : Scroll down to page 4 to see the Santa Fe FT B with 5th porthole.

Interesting read and pics, thanks

The email I received today indicates the 3rd Rail Santa Fe FT will NOT be produced in the classic, historic, earliest, as delivered paint scheme seen in this classic Delano photo.

How long did that initial paint scheme last?

The details are here:  http://atsfrr.net/resources/funits/ftnotes.htm

But roughly until 1953 with some exceptions.

"The email I received today indicates the 3rd Rail Santa Fe FT will NOT be produced in the classic, historic, earliest, as delivered paint scheme seen in this classic Delano photo."

Well, dang.  The ATSF FTs have been a moving target.  I know it is a tough business but the uncertainty makes preordering tough.

Allan

I've had some correspondence with Scott today, and the Cigar Band scheme is not in stone.  He's just trying to pick a paint scheme to generate enough orders.  Jonathan told me to email Scott and I did.  If anyone is going to place an order, let Scott know what you and tell him how many units you will order.

For those going to O Scale West this weekend, you might also talk to Sunset/3rd Rail.

The challenge with the FT project moving forward has been a lack of pre-orders.  There has been a lot of interest but not a lot of orders.  If you really want to see this scheme run then make your interest known and should Scott decide to offer the scheme place an order.  Everything is still pretty fluid at the moment, however at the end of the day what determines whether or not any scheme moves forward will be the number of actual orders placed.  The 5th porthole on the engineers side of the B unit is a go now too.  Check out the new graphics on the website.

Perhaps when the FP7s ship in 3 rail and the 3 rail community can see what an incredible model it is, that will help stimulate orders.  The FP7 is better looking than the FL9 and the FL9 is an incredible model.  I liked the FL9 so much I ended up with 5 of them.   

I confirm... SF Early and Late Freight Schemes, SF Passenger Scheme.

Scott

I put in my order for early SF units this morning.  Not really modeling any of the roads the FT is being offered in, in my thinking the original Santa Fe scheme would be a great set to have as Santa Fe really pushed EMC to develop the FT to its final and most successful form.

So where are all the orders for the SF early scheme?  After all the talk, as of last week I was the only one to order any in three rail.  That's no way to get this scheme done!  Only your order will help make that happen.  This was going to be my one and only Santa Fe set for my collection.  Come on guys, help me out here! 

Jonathan;

Did so @ O Scale West...but 2 rail.

Allan

I'm happy to say that it looks like all three Santa Fe FT versions are going to be made along with <tt>B&O, CB&Q, ERIE, GN, </tt><tt>LACKAWANNA, NP, NYC Lightning Stripe, Rio Grande,and WP.</tt>

I'm really happy about this.  I've wanted a scale FT for a long time.

One should note that the ones not being done are all the ones without dynamic brakes.  There are a couple of dynamic braked versions that are likewise not on the list due to low reservations. 

As a person who reserved an ABBA set of demonstrators I have a third the total number of demonstrators reserved so far.  Most of the others in the defrayed list are in the same boat and need lots more reservations to happen. 

I was most surprised by the low number of Southern units.  The Southern and its subsidiaries were the 3rd largest owners of FTs after the ATSF and GN.

First shot of FT shells

FTs didn't last long in passenger service, only two years and there were only 9 sets converted.  No FTs had stainless sides and got painted in "Aluminum" paint.  I'm not sure how long the Warbonnet stayed on the units until they got repainted, but I suspect as much as a year or so until they received a major shopping.

Some were converted back to freight service after only two years as passenger engines, most lasted four years in passenger service, and 167LABC and 168LA made it for five years as passenger engines. Units 167BC were renumbered to 415LA and retained their passenger colors for a while for use on the Phoenix-Ash Fork passenger train. They were eventually converted back to freight, probably sometime in 1953. Some kept their dual headlights and steam generators for a time, but these items were eventually removed from most of them.

Anyone who actually has any 3rd rail diesels knows that the numberboards and lower headlights are brass castings added on during the road specific detailing. As will the lighted side number boards on the ATSF and DRGW units.

Interestingly, 167 was the only set delivered from EMD with steam generators and passenger gearing in the early freight blue/yellow paint.  They were a test.  So if you want to model an SC or other ATSF Chicago to California or Texas streamliner from 1944-1946 you could very reasonably use a freight scheme unit (if you added the steam generator vents and it was numbered 167).   157-168 were the 11 sets of warbonnet FTs.  The other 10 sets had the steam generators, mars lights, regearing and warbonnet paint done in 1946. Most were returned to freight service in 1949-1950 when 27-36 F3s were delivered.