Re-wiring Layout

IMHO, you should replace the bare copper strips. I realize it is an enormous task and that you have successfully operated your layout this way for a while, but I believe they can lead to shorts and are potentially dangerous.

As far as feeder wires, you can stay with 16 gauge in my opinion and 14 gauge is not necessary.

I would go with the MTH terminal blocks. I have a similar setup using a Z-4000 as my track power source for two loops, each powered by one handle of the transformer. As you can see from the attached pic, I mounted four (4), twelve port MTH blocks with one for loop 1, one for loop two, one for 14v accessories from the 14v transformer tap and one for 10v accessories from the 10v transformer tap. 

I also run Legacy with a command base and DCS with a remote and wi-fi. You can see from the pic that the accessory MTH terminal blocks have blue/white wires going into them directly from the transformer accessory taps and the TIU has two inputs from the transformer and two outputs - one set for each of the loop MTH terminal blocks.

Obviously, I have 12 feeders/drops from each terminal block to twelve feeder locations on each loop which is enough for my layout. You can use the 24 port MTH terminal block if you think you need more drops. I also installed a two terminal block under the plywood at each feeder location to connect the wires coming from the MTH terminal blocks and then short 18 gauge feeders from that block to the underside of my Fastrack. They provide a nice location to solder in a TVS suppressor, but they are not necessary.

I also used crimped spade connectors at the ends of each wire going to the MTH terminal blocks.

Just my $0.02.

@Richie C. posted:

IMHO, you should replace the bare copper strips. I realize it is an enormous task and that you have successfully operated your layout this way for a while, but I believe they can lead to shorts and are potentially dangerous.

As far as feeder wires, you can stay with 16 gauge in my opinion and 14 gauge is not necessary.

I would go with the MTH terminal blocks. I have a similar setup using a Z-4000 as my track power source for two loops, each powered by one handle of the transformer. As you can see from the attached pic, I mounted four (4), twelve port MTH blocks with one for loop 1, one for loop two, one for 14v accessories from the 14v transformer tap and one for 10v accessories from the 10v transformer tap.

I also run Legacy with a command base and DCS with a remote and wi-fi. You can see from the pic that the accessory MTH terminal blocks have blue/white wires going into them directly from the transformer accessory taps and the TIU has two inputs from the transformer and two outputs - one set for each of the loop MTH terminal blocks.

Obviously, I have 12 feeders/drops from each terminal block to twelve feeder locations on each loop which is enough for my layout. You can use the 24 port MTH terminal block if you think you need more drops. I also installed a two terminal block under the plywood at each feeder location to connect the wires coming from the MTH terminal blocks and then short 18 gauge feeders from that block to the underside of my Fastrack. They provide a nice location to solder in a TVS suppressor, but they are not necessary.

I also used crimped spade connectors at the ends of each wire going to the MTH terminal blocks.

Just my $0.02.

Ritchie, this is very helpful, thanks, Arnold

Arnold- I'm no expert on proper DCS wiring (just what I've read on here), but I am an expert on wiring of all types, sizes, etc.

I would defer to the DCS experts but I would recommend following the proper methods for setting up DCS (star, home runs, etc). Pick up Barry's book on DCS wiring.

After that is settled, a think 14 gauge wire for main feeders (because of the length of you runs), and 16 gauge for the drops would be fine. Many guys have used the suitcase style connectors to connect the drops to the main feeders. These eliminate cutting and splicing the mains at each drop.

I'm a big fan of terminal strips. Since you should focus on the DCS wiring methods, then the MTH terminal boards are a good idea.

Switches and accessories will need to be run individually since you need separate control for each. Pick a uniform set of wires for each system so that they are easily identifiable when you have to troubleshoot in the future.

I use Cat 5, and telephone cable for accessories and switches. Cat 5 has 4 pairs of wires that are color coded. Phone cable can have 2-3 pairs depending on what you use.

Label things and keep a log of what you run. Pick a numbering/ lettering system and stick to it. Home Depot/ Lowes sell these (or similar)  numbering sets in the electrical section. A P-touch label maker would work too.

A good assortment of crimp on connectors are advisable as well for connections under screw terminals. Again, HD/ Lowes items.

There are many sources for all the items you will need on-line as well.

Remember to build in room for expansion. Just when you think you covered everything, you will discover that you missed things, or decided to add new accessories, etc.

Sounds like you will be busy for a while. Keep us posted and post questions as they come up.

Bob

Also- don't forget over-current protection (fuses or circuit breakers), and TVSS surge suppressors as Richie indicated above.

Excellent advice, thank you so much!

Just seeing something as basic as the way Ritchie mounted his TIU and Terminal Blocks on a plywood board and Bob explained his various connectors was very helpful.

I already have the DCS Bible, Barry's book.

Anything for a fellow member of the bar

A quick question and two observations:

1. Do you use the 14v accessory terminal on the back of the Z-4K to power any of your accessories, in addition to the ZW ?

2. I don't think it's necessary to solder the spade connectors to the wires at the end where they connect to the MTH terminal blocks. I've just used the crimp ones with a pair of large linesman pliers to squeeze them tight and have never had an issue. Just make sure to get the proper (smaller) size connectors - the larger ones don't fit the MTH block.

3. I also have a yard on one of the loops with 8 sidings and switches and use one port of the MTH block to power all 8. 

@Richie C. posted:

Anything for a fellow member of the bar

2. I don't think it's necessary to solder the spade connectors to the wires at the end where they connect to the MTH terminal blocks. I've just used the crimp ones with a pair of large linesman pliers to squeeze them tight and have never had an issue. Just make sure to get the proper (smaller) size connectors - the larger ones don't fit the MTH block.

Crimps are better than solder. Firstly, the soldering causes the stranded wire at the terminal to become stiff and prone to breaking. Also the crimp as opposed to solder, properly done, is superior as to conductivity. Be sure to use a quality crimper tool…the best ones crimp with a measured force and release when that force is reached.

@Richie C. posted:

Anything for a fellow member of the bar

A quick question and two observations:

1. Do you use the 14v accessory terminal on the back of the Z-4K to power any of your accessories, in addition to the ZW ?

2. I don't think it's necessary to solder the spade connectors to the wires at the end where they connect to the MTH terminal blocks. I've just used the crimp ones with a pair of large linesman pliers to squeeze them tight and have never had an issue. Just make sure to get the proper (smaller) size connectors - the larger ones don't fit the MTH block.

3. I also have a yard on one of the loops with 8 sidings and switches and use one port of the MTH block to power all 8.

Ritchie, I don't use the 14 volt accessory terminal on my Z4000. Instead, I use a ZW for my many Postwar signals, crossing gates and other accessories, and set the voltage at the desired amount.

@cjack posted:

Crimps are better than solder. Firstly, the soldering causes the stranded wire at the terminal to become stiff and prone to breaking. Also the crimp as opposed to solder, properly done, is superior as to conductivity. Be sure to use a quality crimper tool…the best ones crimp with a measured force and release when that force is reached.

Thanks for the advice, cjack, I'll get one st Lowes nearby.

I have this one.  I like it a lot.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...le?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It crimps the ferrule tips into a hex (which is close to round).  They have ones that crimp it into a square.  The tool is great and they give you 1900 ferrules.  They work really well with Euro style terminal blocks or in the case of the other type (like MTH) where the wire goes under the screw head, the ferrule tips fit in there very well if not too thick.

John

Arnold,

You are getting good advice above to use the terminal blocks, solderless crimp connectors, investing in a good crimp tool, keeping your existing lock-ons and existing feeder wires. You can also use that same crimp tool to connect two wires together (without using the terminal strip) by using a crimp butt connector.

Another solderless trick-of-the-trade used in marine and automotive work, if you need to connect two wires together, is to use a shrinkable butt connector. It is a clear plastic tube with a ring of solder in the center.

You insert your stripped wires at each end of the tube, overlap the bare wires within the solder ring, and then use a hair dryer to melt the solder and shrink the tube around the wire. I don't even bother to crimp in most cases! The two wires are effectively soldered together without the need to bring a soldering tool under your train table (and avoiding having solder drops falling on your hands or face!)

Great advice, Bruce.

Thanks to all you guys, I now have the information and knowledge I need to re-wire my layout. I have also bought the supplies I need for this project, including a good crimping tool that I just bought from Lowes. I also have fork/spade lugs, the terminal blocks and screws to mount the terminal blocks and TIU on a plywood board.

I will definitely replace the copper strips with the terminal blocks, and will color code the wiring, after which I will decide whether to keep my current feeder wires or replace them.

Concerning timing, part of me wants to get started immediately, and part of me wants to wait until I get a couple of locomotives back that are being repaired. Also, I know that once I disconnect the wires from the copper strips, my layout will down for a while, but I'm not sure how long.

I will give updates periodically.

Arnold a few thoughts. Are you planning on keeping the operation of the layout the same? As far as existing blocks, switch locations, operating tracks, etc? If so, I would start with attempting to draw an as built wiring configuration drawing as you trace out and disconnect the wiring. Next I would redraw it in a more organized fashion based upon how you are using the terminal strips and power supplies. In doing so, you can develop your wiring color code, labeling system and organize your wire routing. Good luck and don’t procrastinate the sooner you begin the sooner the trains will be running again!

Arnold, I greatly respect you for even considering rewiring your layout. It is a lot of work that for the most part is not visible. Done right it makes the layout reliable and facilitates repairs, upgrades and additions. The track power is actually fairly simple to install and keep organized. in my experience it is all the accessory power and control wires that seem to end up a tangled mess.

Not mentioned is the possibility of tagging the wires during installation. Color codes help, but do not identify what the wire is powering or controlling. Having tags on the accessory wires has saved me a lot of time and headaches over the years. I eliminated a lot of wiring by using the LCS exclusively for accessory control but even with LCS there are a lot of wires under the layout. In addition to the tags I have lists of all the power feeds with devices and color codes for reference. It is like the old joke about no job being done until the paperwork is completed.

My layout has a separate power cart that parks under the layout since it is not needed during operation. It is on a 12’ coiled tether to allow moving it anywhere in the room without disconnecting anything. I have a smaller layout room than yours. My wife is the official label maker in our family so I just give her a list of all the labels or tags I need.

Here are a couple of pictures that show the labels. By the way, I hate those euro terminal blocks and would never use them again. I would use all barrier strips.

The first picture is the power wiring for the eight power districts leaving the cart. The second picture is the accessory power at the cart.

Very impressive, Tom. When I see such organized model railroad wiring like yours, it looks to me like a utility company like Con Edison did it. LOL, Arnold

@Rich Wiemann posted:

Arnold a few thoughts. Are you planning on keeping the operation of the layout the same? As far as existing blocks, switch locations, operating tracks, etc? If so, I would start with attempting to draw an as built wiring configuration drawing as you trace out and disconnect the wiring. Next I would redraw it in a more organized fashion based upon how you are using the terminal strips and power supplies. In doing so, you can develop your wiring color code, labeling system and organize your wire routing. Good luck and don’t procrastinate the sooner you begin the sooner the trains will be running again!

Well thought out and well stated, Rich.

I plan to keep the same track configuration and have the operation of the layout the same, but may expand it by adding 2 more sidings on the far left side of the layout. Those sidings will have a 2 stall engine house and a large custom built Lionel Factory I got 2 months ago from a LHS.

The expansion, if it happens, will happen after the layout is re-wired in a way the provides for the potential for that possible expansion.

Drawing the wiring configurations and labeling the wires are great ideas.

Arnold, if Con Ed, or So Cal Ed, did it all the terminal lugs would be ring tongues rather than spade lugs!

I understand that 14 gauge stranded wire is better and provides more power than 16 gauge solid wire, especially for long wires further away from the transformer.  This would certainly be applicable to the hot wires that go to the center rail.

But what about the cold or common wires that go to the outside rail? Does it make any difference to change those wires from 16 gauge solid to 14 gauge stranded?

Arnold

In extremely simplified principle, the power and ground wires carry the same current as every electron that moves into the "load" must also have an equivalent electron exit the "load". Since current is what determines wire size, one can correctly infer that the hot and ground wires should be the same size.

@bmoran4 posted:

In extremely simplified principle, the power and ground wires carry the same current as every electron that moves into the "load" must also have an equivalent electron exit the "load". Since current is what determines wire size, one can correctly infer that the hot and ground wires should be the same size.

Thanks, bmoran4.

One of my goals is to reduce the number of wires under my layout. I can substantially reduce them by having a bus wire for common or ground, running the entire 35 foot length of my layout, and tapping into it with short feeder wires connected to the bus wire and the track for every few feet of track.

Lowes near me had no 14 gauge bare wires so I bought 14 gauge insulated stranded wire (of a different color, black, than the red colored hot wire). The black 14 gauge stranded wire will be my cold ground wire.

The insulated 14 gauge stranded wire for the hot wire will run from my 12 port MTH Block Terminals to beneath the places under the track where it connects to short 16 gauge insulated white solid wire.

Assuming I use the black insulated 14 gauge stranded wire for ground as a bus wire, how do I tap into it with short 16 gauge solid white wire that is connected to the track? What do you think is the best way to tap into that bus wire?

Arnold

I enjoy using Wago lever lock connectors. They are infinitely better than suitcase connectors or wire nuts and less hassle to install than crimps. They are worth the extra costs hands down and are reusable! They also are good at joining varying sizes of wire (in this case AWG sizes 28 to 12 which is just perfect for our trains).

Here is are two assortments - one is the 222 style, the other 221 (40% smaller footprint):

https://www.amazon.com/Wago-22...rtment/dp/B01GVTVY12

https://www.amazon.com/Wago-22...018MGMFDI/ref=sr_1_3

Just be sure to get real Wago ones and not the off brand knock-off lever nuts as the knockoffs do not meet UL or other safety standards and are of inconsistent quality. That is not to say that one may not find that certain knockoffs are just fine for this low voltage purpose, but I can't justify taking the chance after getting burned.

Arnold sounds like your off to a great start. I personally have never used these myself but I would trust Bob’s @RSJB18 recommendation for the suitcase connector as one method. My only thought is the more connections the more chances for a bad connection to develop leading to more headaches.

Personally I would consider placing your MTH Terminal Block mid point under your layout. Power it from your transformer with your 14 or 12 AWG wire. Than run from that directly to your track lock on’s. Have you determined the number of drops that you will use? Are they split equitably around the layout that would benefit from shifting the MTH or split and have two on each end? Evaluate if you really need a drop every few feet. Consider starting with less. With the organized power distribution system you can easily add one if its needed, just my opinion.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Assuming I use the black insulated 14 gauge stranded wire for ground as a bus wire, how do I tap into it with short 16 gauge solid white wire that is connected to the track? What do you think is the best way to tap into that bus wire?

Arnold

There are T-Taps or Posi-Taps that would work.  I don't like suitcase connectors myself.

But I don't see why your copper strip wouldn't have MORE surface area than the 14 gauge wire would and thus be at least as good if not better conductor.  Someone correct me if this is wrong.

John

Here is another idea to neaten up your wiring and still use your copper strip (if you so choose).

Cable raceways.  25 feet for $25

https://www.amazon.com/Cable-C...XXRKRWTVR05WJ8AX3EE8

The top snaps off for quick access to your wiring.

John

Help me out here guys. I use suitcase connectors and like them. I had them under my modules for literally 20 years and never had an issue that was traceable to them. I run conventional, DCS, TMCC, and Legacy. I like them with buss wiring as you simply slip them over the buss wire, insert the butt end of the wire you need to attach to the buss, and crimp them closed. Snap the cover over the top and you are done. They work extremely well with stranded wire, but much less so with solid wire.

How do you use the Wago connectors without cutting the buss wire? Is digital signal strength that much better with the Wagos? I agree one advantage is you can reuse them or change out wires as necessary, which is something you cannot do with the suitcase connectors.

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

Help me out here guys. I use suitcase connectors and like them. I had them under my modules for literally 20 years and never had an issue that was traceable to them. I run conventional, DCS, TMCC, and Legacy. I like them with buss wiring as you simply slip them over the buss wire, insert the butt end of the wire you need to attach to the buss, and crimp them closed. Snap the cover over the top and you are done. They work extremely well with stranded wire, but much less so with solid wire.

How do you use the Wago connectors without cutting the buss wire? Is digital signal strength that much better with the Wagos? I agree one advantage is you can reuse them or change out wires as necessary, which is something you cannot do with the suitcase connectors.

Chris

LVHR

Suitcase connectors work fine if you leave them alone for 20 years like you did.  But if you are constantly messing with the layout and the wiring they aren't that good as you noted.

John

@lehighline, With the WAGO connectors, they actually act like mini terminal strips, but use surprisingly strong levers instead of screws to retain the wires. So yes, you need to cut/terminate your bus wire, but this is not a big deal at all. For illustrative purposes, the thick red wire could be the 14AWG BUS wire, the green could be 16AWG feeders:

In terms of command control signals or even just plain power delivery, the connectors themselves don't matter, but the quality of the electrical connection does matter, and that IS influenced by the connector type. Use of suitcase connectors are not typically used for connecting different gauge wires. Each gauge combination needs its own specific connector. The suitcase connectors actually sever the wire and can nick or even cut the copper conductor creating an intermittent hard to find wiring issue that can wreak havoc on command signals and power delivery. As such, I find suitcase connectors make a poor choice for quality electrical connections, especially compared to WAGO connectors that do not have these issues at all. Sure, some report success with suitcase connectors, but why invite the potential headache?

I used lever nuts to do my wiring, they were easy to use and allow for changes with no soldering and secure connections.

I used three position and five position models.

Lever Wire Nut 5 Conductor Combination

Lever Wire Nut 3 Conductor Combination

This is what I love about discussions on this board that come up, brings up different viewpoints and allows me to think about what is good for me. I agree that given the run length on your layout, Arnold, that 14gauge is the way to go. In terms of feeders, unless you are running them a long distance (which kind of negates the bus concept), 16 is plenty big, lot of people use 18 gauge for the relatively short runs that feeders represent, might be easier to work with 18 gauge whether lockon or soldering to the track.

Couple of things I have promised myself with the wiring:

1)Use distribution block to feed the wiring for the blocks out to the track (I am wiring conventional block to start). In the past did some crazy kinds of many to one wiring, wasn't great.

2)As much as possible, use color coding with the wiring. If I can't get colored wire, then I will use colored labels or colored tape to show what it is (for example, my current wiring plan calls for purple wire for the DCS feed to the track). With color coding, it is possible to create a wiring diagram using the same color coding. Having traced wiring in cars, the color scheme they use in the harness makes life at least a little bit better when debugging. I also think labels indicating where the wire is going is not a bad idea, for example, in my block 1, having a label "P1" (power 1)  would be valuable. I am going to use a common buss that will be available easily in any part of the layout. If I use 2 transformers, I will use a common ground (and phase them), to not have 2 common busses out there.

3)Use suitcase or wago connectors where possible, and use spade lug and crimp connectors to keep connections neat and minimize soldering.

4)Under the layout, I am going to use something like plastic cable clamps to run the wire through, rather than stapling wires to the underneath or running through drilled out holes in the frame. With these, you can open it up is you need to get access to a wire when tracing or doing something else.

5)Going to try not to overbuild. In my case, given how relatively small my layout is, not overdoing it. In the past I had feeders every couple of feet, which was overkill, given the length of my blocks prob having 2 feeders will do it per block.

Wish you luck, taming the flying bowl of spaghetti is kind of like weeds in a garden, you have to actively seek them out and eradicate them.

I use terminal strips like these...

Well, you've heard from the prosecution, so let me make a statement for the defense. I LOVE your "invention". In fact, I've been using it for years for all my outer rails. I have copper-clad board at strategic locations around the layout, all wired together and all drops from my outer rails go to these boards using solder connections at both ends.

But all types of connections have their place. For the hot wires, I have 4 junction boxes around the edge of the layout from which I can access any power needed--the center rail for the two nearby local blocks (I use 8 blocks--too many--it probably should have been 4 blocks), 12VDC for LEDs, Miller signs, and etc., and 14VAC for switch machines, accessories and so on. The junction boxes are fed from a cabinet with 12VDC "ham-radio-type" power supplies and a big variac turned way down to 14VAC. At the top of the cabinet is a big line filter that (I hope) cleans the power before it gets onto the layout.

Anyway, pix below. Every setup is different I guess. I just looked for lowest-cost solutions at every step and this is what I ended up with. Everything from copper clad board to terminal strips to spade lug connectors is from my substantial junk box.

Don Merz

Along with all the great advice posted in this thread, consider adding wire zip ties that have a label area attached to mark wires that are distant from the control panel area.

https://www.amazon.com/Marker-...GBQ2QMZ%2CB074J7DPGB

The rats nest has got to go😁

As well as the bare copper-you never know what could land across them to cause an issue..better safe than sorry 😁

As far as the MTH Terminal board..

for $25 it’s overpriced in my book

You can buy Electrical Ground Lug Strips cheaper and get more terminals..

I built this ..

Because I got my Z-4000 used-and very cheap, because the display is damaged and too expensive to repair -but the output is 100% accurate  

the Amp meters were $15 each

and the 4 bus bars were about $20

And I can terminate 11 feeders on each throttle  

You can get these bus bars at any home center…

Im redoing my set up, to add individual on/off toggles for each feeder…plus an in-line fuse to add engine protection  

I like the square drive lugs…they provide great secure mechanical connection  

Good luck

@1drummer posted:

As far as the MTH Terminal board  for $25 it’s overpriced in my book

Agree!  Many cheaper alternatives of various sizes:

https://www.amazon.com/NTE-Ele...rminal/dp/B098WFBF6B

Or buy them even cheaper.   TB1512L Terminal Block

"Estimated Delivery on Jan 02"

Yikes.

John

I would not mount any current carrying components to wood. A simple piece of plastic, or a fiber washer to isolate the metal from the wood is advisable.

Fires can happen under any circumstance.

As a follow-up to my earlier comment on cheaper alternatives to the MTH distribution block, I failed to mention that the MTH Terminal board has 12 terminals electrically connected to the red post and another 12 connected to the black post. In order to get an equivalent functionality with the cheaper 12-terminal strips, you would need to purchase two strips plus two barrier strips to electrically connect all the terminals together on each strip.