Real Trax 0-31 Switch Electrical Issue Causing Loco To Stop After Entering Switch Track

Not very familiar with Real Trax but it sounds as if you are missing power in the center of the two switches. If you run a train the other way through what happens?

http://extranet.mth-railking.c...ction/40as17023i.pdf

Dennis,

    This happens to be one of the big problems with RealTrax switches, use a longer engine with spaced out roller contacts and your problem will be eliminated.  This is one of the reasons RealTrax is so unfriendly to Tin Plate engines, I do not drop extra contacts because of poor switch engineering, I use other switches or eliminate the switches all together.

PCRR/Dave

A volt/ohm meter will identify where the problem is located. A lighted caboose or car if you don't have a meter. But, you really need to be able to check the rails.

Of course, only the center rail wire needs to be disconnected.

I would guess that the 40-1029 track is dead. The RealTrax lock-ons and the track system will only have one outside rail connected. Therefore, when you place two switches opposing both outside rails have no connection to neutral(black) on the turn outs and your straight.

One solution would be to turn one of the terminal tracks around. Then, both outside rails will have a common.

So, you need a meter or continuity tester to determine if you have no hot or no common in the crossover.

I have had success isolating loops by using a good quality electrical tape (3M professional) wrapped on both center contacts before placing the track together. This permits turn-out to turn-out for a crossover or simply, just a closer fitment to help in design. No cutting the track or the connector off.

I also soldered a jumper wire to the two outside rail contacts under the track anywhere I placed a track feed. (The center rail was soldered also)

I was working with almost 250' of 12 year old RealTrax restoring a 3 level layout. RealTrax is ok. I didn't like that only one outside rail had a common unless one put lock-ons on opposite sides by flipping a terminal track. I did away with lock-ons and have 3 isolated loops with 17 switches and a helix connecting all three loops.

trainman129 posted:

Not very familiar with Real Trax but it sounds as if you are missing power in the center of the two switches. If you run a train the other way through what happens?

Thanks.  Good question, and the same thing happens in the opposite direction, which also led me to the conclusion of a lack of power on the straight between the switches.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Dennis,

    This happens to be one of the big problems with RealTrax switches, use a longer engine with spaced out roller contacts and your problem will be eliminated.  This is one of the reasons RealTrax is so unfriendly to Tin Plate engines, I do not drop extra contacts because of poor switch engineering, I use other switches or eliminate the switches all together.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks Dave.  I used to rave about RealTrax when I replaced my 0-72 tubular layout entirely with RealTrax, since I had come to the opinion that the newer 0-72 Lionel switches were so unreliable.   I had two duck-unders to contend with hat required crawling under them for the numerous derailments.  I started slowly replacing with RealTrax, and the RT switches were essentially bullet-proof for me at that time as far as lack of derailments -- perhaps 3 total derailments  in several years of operation!  

After assembling and disassembling the RealTrax layout a couple times during this recent rebuild [a total rebuild to eliminate the two duck-unders:  age AND mileage!!!], my opinion of RealTrax has gone south -- way south.  In addition to difficulties with the copper connectors bending, I have broken numerous plastic tabs on a number of the track sections.  By contrast, my sections of Super 0 track in the same room are still virtually the same as when new in terms of assembly and disassembly, and the Super 0 was purchased in the early 1960's by my father for me.

My mistake was initially replacing my 0-72 loop of hand-curved GarGraves with the Lionel 0-72 track because of the lack of the necessary time required then to bend, cut, and install the GarGraves track.  That started this cycle!

At this time,  I just don't want to disassemble this whole layout again to replace the RealTrax, since I am building a different layout in an adjoining room.

Moonman posted:

A volt/ohm meter will identify where the problem is located. A lighted caboose or car if you don't have a meter. But, you really need to be able to check the rails.

Of course, only the center rail wire needs to be disconnected.

I would guess that the 40-1029 track is dead. The RealTrax lock-ons and the track system will only have one outside rail connected. Therefore, when you place two switches opposing both outside rails have no connection to neutral(black) on the turn outs and your straight.

One solution would be to turn one of the terminal tracks around. Then, both outside rails will have a common.

So, you need a meter or continuity tester to determine if you have no hot or no common in the crossover.

I have had success isolating loops by using a good quality electrical tape (3M professional) wrapped on both center contacts before placing the track together. This permits turn-out to turn-out for a crossover or simply, just a closer fitment to help in design. No cutting the track or the connector off.

I also soldered a jumper wire to the two outside rail contacts under the track anywhere I placed a track feed. (The center rail was soldered also)

I was working with almost 250' of 12 year old RealTrax restoring a 3 level layout. RealTrax is ok. I didn't like that only one outside rail had a common unless one put lock-ons on opposite sides by flipping a terminal track. I did away with lock-ons and have 3 isolated loops with 17 switches and a helix connecting all three loops.

 

Thanks Carl!  Those are all excellent suggestions!  I have been using a small bulb with two wires that I bought back in the "old days" to illuminate Plasticville buildings!  I'll have to get my meter.  the caboose is a great idea!  Do you think I could just run power to the straight section?  Unfortunately, every tine I disassemble this section, one whole side of a doggone off of the mainline has to be pulled apart, and more connectors seem to get bent.

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

Moonman posted:

 

So, you need a meter or continuity tester to determine if you have no hot or no common in the crossover.

 

 

 

Carl, sorry for the duplicate posts, but, in again studying your excellent, detailed post, I was wondering if you were suggesting testing the crossover part of the switches rather than the ends of the tracks.

Bobby Ogage posted:

Thanks Bobby!  That's very helpful, and, I will take a look based on the excellent diagnosis, analysis and photos that you have posted

Dennis,

The bulb will work. it will help find the actual "dead" spot. it won't tell you if it's an outside rail or the center rail.

Another simple test would be to connect a temporary jumper (like an alligator clip jumper) to both outside rails and try to run the engine through the crossover.

You have to test from every joint in the area to the other side of joint. I test all of the rails on the switches. You can move quickly with a meter.

power to the isolating straight would have to come from each of the power districts to the half of the straight center rail closest to that switch.

That's a lot of work to be guessing. The continuity testing with no power identifies whether you have connections or not where they should be.(both common or hot)

Heard that on the contact bending. I think we have to free up about 3 tracks in either direction to pull a track out. We had a few surprises where the previous builder cut rails that we didn't want cut. Finding them later (with continuity testing) and taking them out was a pain. Not to mention trying to get out hundreds of those terrible Atlas track screws and replacing them with #4 x 3/4" flat head Philips sheet metal screws. They made reworks and troubleshooting a lot easier.

I just reshape the contacts with needle nose pliers when they get buggered. You have to make the tracks into a V when connecting or disconnecting. That's why two or three on either side need to be loose for shallow V at least.

I went through many of these due to my wiring errors or a helper's error, a wire never connected or a surprise cut track or cut off connector. You have the benefit of knowing the track. I found all of them with continuity testing. A meter is a necessity if you want to play with electric trains.

Dennis,

    I am not trying to bad mouth RealTrax, my inner loops are all RealTrax, however I got rid of all the RT switches, because setting them up back to back to back, they had real big problems accommodating my Tin Plate Trains.  In fact if you look at Carl's (Moonman) beautiful RealTrax layout, you will notice there are no back to back RealTrax switches, on his layout, let alone a Back to back to back, multi switch engineering set up.  RealTrax operates best when set up, and left alone, taking the track apart each Christmas season is not what I do, I actually store each inner RealTrax level with out breaking it down, in this manner it has worked very very well, down thru the years, in fact I just added another RealTrax inner loop on the 2nd level for the new Hallmark/Lionel Santa Toy Maker Express, to run around the foot of our Bear Christmas Tree.  

RealTrax does have it's uses, but you need to know it's engineering limitations also, the RT switch problems, go on for ever if you choose to use them.

PCRR/Dave

Moonman posted:

Dennis,

The bulb will work. it will help find the actual "dead" spot. it won't tell you if it's an outside rail or the center rail.

Another simple test would be to connect a temporary jumper (like an alligator clip jumper) to both outside rails and try to run the engine through the crossover.

You have to test from every joint in the area to the other side of joint. I test all of the rails on the switches. You can move quickly with a meter.

power to the isolating straight would have to come from each of the power districts to the half of the straight center rail closest to that switch.

That's a lot of work to be guessing. The continuity testing with no power identifies whether you have connections or not where they should be.(both common or hot)

Heard that on the contact bending. I think we have to free up about 3 tracks in either direction to pull a track out. We had a few surprises where the previous builder cut rails that we didn't want cut. Finding them later (with continuity testing) and taking them out was a pain. Not to mention trying to get out hundreds of those terrible Atlas track screws and replacing them with #4 x 3/4" flat head Philips sheet metal screws. They made reworks and troubleshooting a lot easier.

I just reshape the contacts with needle nose pliers when they get buggered. You have to make the tracks into a V when connecting or disconnecting. That's why two or three on either side need to be loose for shallow V at least.

I went through many of these due to my wiring errors or a helper's error, a wire never connected or a surprise cut track or cut off connector. You have the benefit of knowing the track. I found all of them with continuity testing. A meter is a necessity if you want to play with electric trains.

 

 

Thanks Carl.   That is also very helpful info.  I'll try making a "v" to remove the tracks, and will check the power connections as you suggest.

Thanks Dave, That's very helpful.   I agree that, for me also, leaving the RealTrax set up and not disassembling the RT would be the best.   I find, however, that even after carefully planning a new layout, changes may need to be made based on operating nuances, and other issues that don't show up until running the trains.  That, unfortunately requires at least one disassembly, and, perhaps more until the issues are resolved.

A friend brought over a new Lionel RailChief Plus FT ABA set, and we couldn't get the ABA through another set of my RT switch tracks that are separated by a single straight section in a different configuration.   The AA units, however, worked flawlessly.  I suspect that resulted because the FT "B" Unit is powered, and there is not enough "play' in the powered trucks to let the AB units through that track section without derailing.  We tried the ABA numerous times, and the units just kept derailing.  Again, no problem as an AA pair.  Unfortunately, given the configuration of the table and the layout, I can't change that intersection.  Thanks again!

Bt Doctur posted:

http://extranet.mth-railking.c...ction/40as17023i.pdf

Thanks!  I actually tried to find the answer in one of my RT Switch manuals before starting this thread.  I may have missed it, but, I couldn't find the answer!

yeah, Dennis, I struggled with RealTrax assembly/disassembly too long on the first level until I stopped to check it out. I found this video at MTH. Watch at the end when he disassembles the track how many pieces lift up.

Switches and connected tracks are the most difficult because you have to loosen track in three directions. I try to a thru joint loose first.

Anyway, you'll figure it out and get rid of the dead spot.

Moonman posted:

A volt/ohm meter will identify where the problem is located.

 ...The RealTrax lock-ons and the track system will only have one outside rail connected. Therefore, when you place two switches opposing both outside rails have no connection to neutral(black) on the turn outs and your straight.

One solution would be to turn one of the terminal tracks around. Then, both outside rails will have a common.

 

Thanks Carl.  Adding a terminal connection so that both outside rails have a ground connection to the common ground solved the problem.  Also, I will purchase a volt meter as you recommend!

Finally, thanks to each of the above Forum members for their assistance, and to each of you that posted the excellent pictures.

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

Moonman posted:

A volt/ohm meter will identify where the problem is located.

 ...The RealTrax lock-ons and the track system will only have one outside rail connected. Therefore, when you place two switches opposing both outside rails have no connection to neutral(black) on the turn outs and your straight.

One solution would be to turn one of the terminal tracks around. Then, both outside rails will have a common.

 

Thanks Carl.  Adding a terminal connection so that both outside rails have a ground connection to the common ground solved the problem.  Also, I will purchase a volt meter as you recommend!

Finally, thanks to each of the above Forum members for their assistance, and to each of you that posted the excellent pictures.

Dennis,

Good to hear that you resolved the issue.

No need to spend big bucks for a meter. A Harbor Freight clamp-on meter will do all that need to keep your trains running.

Have fun with the layout!

Dennis,

Good to hear that you resolved the issue.

No need to spend big bucks for a meter. A Harbor Freight clamp-on meter will do all that need to keep your trains running.

Have fun with the layout!

Thanks again Carl!

Also, thanks for recommending  a helpful, inexpensive clamp-on meter!

       http://www.harborfreight.com/c...ultimeter-95683.html

In this regard, how do you utilize the clamp on function for model railroading, or, is that function used for other purposes?  

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

Dennis,

Good to hear that you resolved the issue.

No need to spend big bucks for a meter. A Harbor Freight clamp-on meter will do all that need to keep your trains running.

Have fun with the layout!

Thanks again Carl!

Is this the type of clamp-on meter you recommend?

       http://www.harborfreight.com/c...ultimeter-95683.html

Also, how do you utilize the clamp on function for model railroading, or, is that function used for other purposes?  

Just put the clamp around a wire and it will read amperage for you. One use is to determine if a layout or train is taxing the transformer. draw on lighting or accessory circuits is another. It is also a multimeter with test leads for other typical measurements like continuity testing or acquiring voltage readings.

The five function will provide enough for layout troubleshooting. You don't need a professional model until you know you need one.

The are other sources, like eBay and such. Just a small outlay for a useful tool.

Thanks again Carl.  Sounds great.  I'll plan to get one.

I prefer this clamp-on from HF, it's compact and mine is very accurate.

6-Function Multi-meter

As always, thanks John!  That looks great.

Carl,

That MTH Real Trax Video is very helpful,  as are the suggestions in this thread make a "V" to disassemble the track.  I used the method in the video to disassemble a section of the doggone to add a feeder wire, and the process went much more smoothly.  That section is far more easy to disassemble than the 18' mainline, however, because unscrewing the track for only a short distance allowed me to make a "v".