Recommended rail - different perspective

you might want to check into the LCCA they along with Lionel have put together a modular system.

http://www.lionelcollectors.org/lcca-newsstand/lccanews/newsStory.aspx?id=446&catId=21

Thanks for the link but I'm not really interested in building another modular layout. I had in mind a stand-alone layout, not too big, that I could put in my small SUV with a roof top carrier, and take to shows. In other words, a layout that, hopefully, will inspire someone else to build their own home layout.

Dan

Lionel, MTH, and Atlas all have sectional track with a built in roadbed.  I'd pick one of those.  I use FasTrack only because it was the first I was introduced to.  Atlas's is newer, so it doesn't have a lot to choose from.  MTH's comes in smaller radius than FasTrack, so you can fit more in a smaller space, but people tend to feel that FasTrack switches are the best out there.

if you are going for that classic post war look I would go with traditional Lionel tubular track, readily available, inexpensive and bullet proof. if you are going for more of the hi-rail look then Gargraves track and ross switches will do nicely and are very reliable and rugged.

I'm sorry about what I'm about to post.

Unless a smart phone can build the layout, very few people will ever be inspired to build one at home. Mom might purchase a Lionel starter set at a big box store if one is available for Junior, but neither She nor Junior will be much interested it, if they can get it set up. We live in a different time than when Dad worked with Junior on a layout. There probably isn't a Dad, and video games, Ipods, and smartphones are the thing now.

I admire your attempt, though, and if you can get just one person interested, It's worth it.

The standard answer concerning track is going to be fastrack. It comes in starter sets, is easy to work with, and can be purchased in more mainstream stores than any other track. It's expensive, though, like really expensive, and I'm sorry again, but doesn't look very realistic no matter what you do to it. Any "roadbed" type track just doesn't look real, and is usually noisy as well. I think I'd go with good old O-27 tubular. It comes in many lengths, diameters, and is cheap on the secondary market. Sticker shock keeps quite a few people out of the hobby.

Toy trains are going the way of sundials and biplanes. Kinda neat, but yesterday's news.

I'm being ver negative, but it's the way I see things. I really hope you do build something to get a few people into a very enjoyable hobby.

Lionel has put a lot of time into coming up with plans and even kits to encourage people to build modular layout sections.  You might want to use and promote that formula if you hope to attract others to join you.  See this link for details:

http://www.lionel.com/CentralS...lease.cfm?newsID=212

I am happy with fastrack and I used it simply because I already had a bunch of it.  Most starter sets come with fastrack, and if you're only building a modular section the cost isn't going to be that bad.  The standard 0-36 will fit a good selection of engines.

Wow -there are some downer replies here.  I am a bit surprised by the pessimism. I think you stand a good chance.

Lionels' Fastrack is the clear choice, I think, particularly because you say you need to take it apart frequently.

Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion. Lionel Fastrak and I agree with Lee's  suggestion would be your best bet, Easy to use and set up. 

I use gargraves track and Ross Turnouts on my permanent layouts. For my Christmas tree layouts I have adopted Lionel Fastrack. It goes and stays together reliably. The trains run well on it and it looks good. I think Fastrack will be your answer.

Lionel 0 gauge tubular. 

It depends on the vibe you're after for track choice. The others have listed the best choices for each style very well. You could use more that one type of track for a comparative look. 2 loops, or left half one way, right another. New plastic & old tubular together in one "loop"? Scale scenery, and tin plate scenery, divided down the center of the board? It would touch two types of "personalities" too. Those who think new is always better, and those that want old and familiar.

The O-27 alone would give you the smallest table to have to haul, and is what many folks "expect" to see. O gauge is stronger and less likely to suffer "the bends" from lots of teardowns  

Dan,

You have a great goal; getting people interested in the hobby.  It made me think about how I got involved.

My interest in toy trains came late in life: first when I started playing with trains with my farther-in-law and second when my brother switched from N scale to prewar Marx (he became a leading Marx expert for TTOS).  In both cases they would set up their three rail trains at Christmas.  Whenever friends/relatives visited them during Christmas, they would really enjoy the trains and talk about getting their own.  In my farther-in-law’s case, this led to his desire to have a permanent layout (my brother had a traveling Marx layout he took to shows/meets).  He and I got closer together building a small Lionel based layout in his basement.

Thinking about this, maybe getting people interested in building a permanent layout is too big a first step.  Maybe smaller steps might be better, starting with a temporary holiday layout.  Maybe some discussion on joining a modular club to run trains on a larger layout without building one at home (may make home life better).  I guess if I were to try what you are doing, I’d stress a holiday scenario (track that is durable, dependable, and easy to take up and down) and brochures on local clubs they can visit for more information.

Another thought:  Because of today’s sophisticated devices used by everyone but a few folks on the forum, I would stress the command control aspects of the hobby.

The very best of luck in you endeavor.  Ron

Dan:

I think your idea is great. I've also noticed that the 3-rail displays seem to draw more attention; more correctly, the larger scale displays. Personally, I believe its a matter of being able to see, hear, and even smell the larger trains better than the HO or N scale displays. The true miniaturists will disagree on that comment. The "tinplate" displays are an irresistable magnet for the folks who grew up in the 40s, 50s, 60s when the Christmas tree trains were the most popular. When those folks see those trains, its a perfect opportunity to show the grandson/daughter what grandpa/grandma enjoyed decades ago. Some of the kids will be enchanted; some will not.

That said, I'd go with the tubular track. A selection of scenic items and structures that are not overwhelming will go a long way in creating the "I can do that" sense which you are attempting to demonstrate.

Wishing you well on your endeavor...

Neil 

One thing to remember in order to meet your goals are to keep it simple.  Here's some photos of the layout we campaigned in the 1980's:

It was 4'x12' with a 2'x12' staging yard.  It took three of us around 45 minutes (once unloaded and located) to get set up and running and about a half-hour to knock down.

All the accessories were keyed to their locations, connected using 1/4" phone jacks and the trees were held down with Velcro.

It was designed to keep a train running at all times for 8 or more hours, with a train change every half hour.  Train direction was reversed at the 15 minute mark.

Action was supplied by the operating accessories and that the train route alternated to the passing siding automatically every other orbit. 

Now, did we inspire someone to build a get involved in the hobby and build a layout? 

Possibly, it's something we will never really know.

But, the layout drew a lot of interest from opening to closing and we had a blast doing the shows.

Rusty

If your going for a toy train style layout, I would suggest tubular.

If going for semi realistic, Fast Track or Realtrax.  Personally I prefer the look of Realtrax.

Either way, ignore the pessimists and have some fun.  I was originally doing all HO but went to O because of my kids.  If I go back smaller it will be N for the next round.

There are many neat layout designs that can fit your ideas, most of the free versions of track planning software will give you plenty to work with.  Personally, if I was doing s small layout for shows, i would go with the disappearing train style.

If wanting to attract kids, lots of operational accessories would be my recommendation.

Again I will stress that you should take a look at the Fastrack modular layout plans and kits from Lionel.  They are specifically designed to do what you are trying to do, and anyone can go to a hobby shop or online and find what they need.  They will even sell you precut wooden frames.

https://ogrforum.com/t...ca-convention?page=1

Wow! So many really good ideas here.

TexasSP: Disappearing trains are always neat - keeps the "kids" guessing.

Chuck: I, too, have noticed the LEGO groups. It may not be traditional model railroading as we know it but it's clear that the operators and the audience both love it. Maybe a LEGO building or two... hmmm.

Rusty Traque: Very nice pix - lots of good ideas there.

Adriatic: More than one type of track. Hadn't thought of that - I'll keep it in mind.

So it comes down to, at least in my mind, Lionel tubular or Lionel Fast Track - or both.

Thanks to all for your help,

Dan

Lionel tubular track=toy look (I don't think kids today have any nostalgia for the pre-1960s days). FasTrack is sort of real looking without the work. I use it for my small layouts. Trying to mix the two makes no sense to me.

Dan,

1) Reliable,

2) Easy to take apart and assemble when setting up and tearing down for train shows, and

3) Inspire people to believe that they too could build a permanent layout at home.

That spells FasTrack!

After 40 years in HO, I started O-Gauge with FasTrack and that was a wise decision. My second layout, which is much larger, is with Atlas track, but I still use FasTrack for the Christmas train around the tree or when I want to setup track for kids to play on the floor.

The only drawback with FasTrack, depending on who is setting it up and taking it apart, is that sometimes a few sections do not come apart easily; but then again, that is why it stays together so well without any need for fastening it down.

Good luck!

Alex

Although I generally applaud such efforts to bring our young folks into the hobby, I believe brr's comments do accurately summarize the reality of the situation:

First, the loss of many hobbyists due to natural attrition is seriously reducing our ranks, and the new blood is not coming in at a sufficient rate to offset that. Unfortunately, the current economic malaise, a rapidly decreasing older demographic, today's youth having many more electronic distractions, plus higher costs of manufacturing in an already saturated marketplace spell a decline in both sales and interest in our fine hobby! 

Being a former N scaler for years I now run scale o gauge but I use fastrack on my home layout and I love it. The switches are very smooth and never had a problem. Yes the track is not the best scale looking track out there but with some work it can be made to look great. 

For me I needed a easier way to lay track and I found fastrack fit the bill. I can run any scale sized locomotive on my layout and that was very important. I'll be moving soon and my next layout will have O84 and O72 using fastrack plus all command switches. 

it is a great track system for people like myself who have problems like Parkinson's or other problems with their hands. 

I did say I was sorry before I posted my thoughts.

The problem begins at the beginning. Once you've shown someone even they can build a layout, that someone has to purchase the supplies. There's nothing wrong with fastrack until a newcomer looks at the price. $5.00 per section, $50.00 for a turnout using a current Lionel catalog as reference. Remember, a newcomer doesn't know about discounts, blowouts, used marketplace, etc. They're also probably not up on the local hobby shop, which are few and far between the further west you go, and may be a good thing from what I've seen of a lot of lhs's.

I stick by O-27. More trains in a small space with more options.

If I wanted to promote the O-gauge hobby this is what I'd do:

1. Get a loop of fastrack, and a loop of tubular to run 2 trains in as small a space as possible.

2. Scenic it as realistic as possible.

3. Make a sourcelist to hand out to people. Include local retailers, mail order websites, including a couple how-to websites, along with the current 2 major magazine websites. Include e-bay as well.

4. Get a couple pieces of tubular track mount them on a 1x4 and show a section of it as manufactured, then a piece with wooden ties added, then a piece with ties and ballast. Tell people how cheap and easy it is to do.

5. Get out the word about postwar, MPC, and early modern. Most of them are good products, and cheap. If they're interested, they'll eventually buy new. There is nothing worst for getting new people into this hobby than the manufacturer's catalogs! They're made for us, the people already in the hobby, not the newcomer. Talk about sticker shock! When you can buy a laptop for $300.00, those $80.00 boxcars and $1000.00 engines are the worst thing to show a newcomer.

I really do hope geepboy can meet his goal. There's just a lot of things working against him right now. The economy, changing family structures,and a "right now" attitude. If people knew how cheap and how small of a space it takes to start out, it might help, but watching a train go in circles just isn't that popular anymore. Heck, I rarely run my trains. I like building structures and doing scenery, along with the history of both real and toy trains.

All the best.

I use Atlas 3 rail track on my basement layout, but use Lionel tubular rail "under the Christmas tree".

I can't understand why Lionel and MTH, but especially Lionel, have not packaged a "layout for under the Christmas tree". There are a LOT of Christmas trees bought every year, and Christmas is certainly a time of nostalgia.

The set should be identified for "set up under your Christmas tree". It should have a steam engine with smoke and sound, 2 or 3 different and vividly painted cars, and a red caboose. It should also have a power supply, perhaps 40W. It doesn't have to include, and probably should not include, electronics. An operating car of some type, such as a cattle car? should be available separately at a reasonable cost. (This is not an original thought by me, but a set configuration that has been successful in the past.)

I don't know what the price point should be, but certainly less than $250, and probably less than $200. Oh, and the engine should be die cast and "bulletproof".

As hobbyists, I think we all want "all of the bells and whistles" for potential new fans. That is the incorrect approach. The correct approach is to "lure" people into this hobby by starting small. Most of them will not "graduate" to modelers, but if only 5% of them do, our hobby would probably double in size......

Lionel already offer a whole range of christmas sets with this purpose in mind. This year's 'Silver bells' set even has the new remote, and the rrp is well within your suggested price range too. (The caboose is green though.)

To answer the initial question posted by Dan:  FasTrack would certainly be my choice.

As far as growing the hobby is concerned, here's what I posted on another thread earlier today:

Allow me to provide a fine example of how to grow the hobby:

I ventured over to forum member Dave Minarik's Mercer Junction train shop yesterday...a fine fall day and I just needed to get away for a while.

While there, a middle-age couple came into the shop.  The husband is a friend of one of Dave's motorcycle pals, but neither he nor his wife are "train people."  They came to the store because that biking bud had told them about Dave, and the wife was interested in possibly buying a train to complement a whole series of hand-crafted wood buildings that another friend of theirs had made for her over some years (really gorgeous work, I must add).

They looked around the store for a while, and Dave soon had them operating and admiring the store layout (running some trains with DCS).

They then began asking about various ways to approach getting their very first train, and Dave walked them through all the basics that go into getting started.  I also chimed in from time to time, but Dave patiently guided them through the various options and provided a wealth of both buying and operating tips.

Long story short:  The couple walked out with an MTH Pennsy steam freight starter set, a bunch of accessories, and extra sections of track.  Dave also made sure they had his phone number so they could also contact him if they had any problems or questions.

There's no doubt in my mind that those folks WILL be back for more.  They may not get into building a massive layout, but I'll bet that once they start playing around with that set and seeing how it complements that beautiful collection of buildings, chances are very good that they'll take me up on my advice to expand things later with a couple of switches or so and perhaps even a second train.  We shall see!

Now THAT'S one good way to grow the hobby!  Doesn't have to be in a train shop, of course, but it could be from talking with folks at a seasonal train show or even by displaying enthusiasm for the hobby on a one-to-one basis with a friend, colleague, or friend of a friend.  I've seen it happen this way time and again over the years.

Also shows the value of a local or even not-quite-local hobby shop staffed by someone who knows the hobby well and whose enthusiasm is contagious.  When those businesses are lost, the whole hobby suffers.

@brr,

Careful, I sense a hint of optimism here – LOL.

O-27: Not sure about this but please read on.

Your ideas:

1) Simple loops:  I want to a little more than one or two loops – call me ambitious.

2) Realistic scenery:  Agreed. I’m like you in that I enjoy building structures and especially scenery more than just running trains.

3) Source list: Very good idea

4) Examples of “spruced up” track: Great idea but I probably do the same with whatever track I chose including Fast Track as well as tubular.

5) Get out the word: Not too sure just how I’d do this. I agree that sticker shock is a very deciding factor in purchases.

@ALL,

A little background:

I had this same “promote the hobby” idea a few years ago but do it in HO scale. I saw Malcolm Furlow’s  Carbondale Central  and thought :

1) Real simple track plan – With some (OK, a lot of) planning, I could build this designed for travel

2) Typical Furlow “lots of detail” – I happen to like this look – I realize that not all do.

3) Real WOW factor – if done properly.

But then reality reared its ugly head. Too much WOW factor. If I could actually build something like this it would probably scare off as many as it intrigued. I liked the track plan though.

Fast forward a decade and I saw Dennis Brennan’s Sandy Harbor layout and was completely blown away. Same basic track plan – less over powering detail – but done in O scale 3-rail. What’s not to like? But could I build something similar designed for travel? Good question – don’t know. Believe me, if I could figure out how to build something similar to the Sandy Harbor that I could take to train shows I’d do it in a heartbeat.

So, where am I?

1) Design and build a O scale 3-rail something to take to train shows.

2) Some WOW factor but not too much – don’t want to scare of the public.

3) Use Fast Track and tubular, dressed up as required. Examples of each for people to examine.

4) Realistic scenery

5) More than one train running at the same time perhaps over more than one route to vary things up a bit.

6) Automatic control as much as possible so I could talk to “the customers” without having to constantly be on my guard for “corn field meets”.

Sorry for the long rambling. Again, thanks to all for your help,

Dan

That sounds like a pretty good plan to me, although I would likely avoid the mix of track types and stick with what is most commonly available and used these days.

I also agree on not including too much of a "Wow!" factor if you're trying to inspire folks to get involved.  Although people really enjoy all the "Wow" they can get, they also tend to be intimidated by too much of it and figure "that looks great, but I could never do that."

Definitely include some operating accessories.  On my club's Christmas show layout we have many accessories, all wired to operate off push buttons.  Banjo signals, crossing gates, semaphores all have a lot of action.  The kids absolutely love it.  Just don't use items that require reloading unless you need to keep busy.  However, some of these can be easily modified for unattended operation: the ice house and the milk car can have their loads glued to the man, and the cattle car can be set up so the cows march continously through the car (fasten the loading gates down). 

All well and good, BUT it's important, in my view, to use materials that are somewhat readily available in the open market, which offer a suitable range of products, and which are commonly stocked at most hobby shops.  As I see it, that would include Lionel's FasTrack, MTH RealTrax, Atlas O, and GarGraves.  Certainly there are other brands out there, but with far more limited range of items and stocked in far fewer places.  And how many shops even carry conventional tubular O or O27 these days?  Does it come with any starter sets currently being offered?

We're talking about a relatively small and portable layout here, so you also don't want to get carried away trying to do too much.  You cannot build something that will be all things to all people, and there's no valid reason to even try for that.

If you want "yeah, I could do that" to be part of the equation, you darn well better build it with things the average person might expect to find at most hobby shops and in most starter sets, assuming they are lucky enough to have a hobby shop available to them.  Do NOT expect a first-timer to go out on the Internet to search for things he or she knows little or nothing about, 'cause that ain't gonna happen.  Yet another reason why the loss of local dealers is bound to negatively and profoundly impact growth in this hobby.  It's already happening folks!

This is a key observation . . . and all the more reason to use Fastrack as I see it.  It is much more widely available than anything else.  People getting into the hobby will probably buy an RTR set and while they might get good advice about MTH or RMT or other companies, they've heard of Lionel since they were kids and they can find the kits at Big Box stores, etc., this time of year. show them they can start from that and you're halfway there. 

Spot on, Frank!  They won't even know what they have lost until it's too late.  And that's particularly true when it comes to the myriad of small items that support the hobby and layout building.  Order those small things online and the shipping will eat you alive, and it's only going to get worse when a national Internet sales tax is imposed (which it will be at some point).

But some people have to learn the hard way, I suppose. 

I would use Lionel O-ga. track tucked into Johnson rubber roadbed.  If switches

were involved, though, I would avoid Lionel in favor of the Ross product.

Good luck!        Hoppy

Following Allan Miller's line of thinking I'm probably going to go with Fast Track although I'll probably prepare a length of Lionel tubular track just to hand to people so they can see another option.

One question, though. How reliable are the turnouts from Lionel Fast Track? The HO group I'm currently with models Europe and we use Märklin "C" track with a built-in track bed. It, too, has the turnout motors built into the track bed and they work quite well. That's one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards Fast Track - its built-in turnout motors (if I understand the product correctly).

So, in this regard, I'm after reliability here. What say you?

Dan

Based on the three criteria set forth in the original post, the logical choice would be Lionel FasTrack. 

If I was doing such a layout for public display (in the hope of inspiring some viewers to explore the hobby further), I would probably use Lionel FasTrack track and switches, one or more MTH starter set trains (command control capability), a variety of structures of various brands, and a combo of built-up and hand-made trees and other items.  Also would include figures from a number of sources.

Excellent points. I must be lucky, although a 40 min. drive to the closest HS (I have yet to order train stuff online), most shops by me still carry tubular track, switches, etc.(those that don't are small scale oriented). But not everyone lives near a sizeable city. And Big boxes, and starter sets surely don't have tubular inside them today. But I don't think tubular is that hard to find, by any means, and I among others don't care for the plastic road beds of any brand, for various reasons. Ill buy new trains, and at least shout praises for things I cant afford if I like them, but if its mine, its going to be run on anything but plastic road bed track. Sorry, its one product I don't care for, and I was taught to support what I liked, not what was pushed on me. Somewhere out there is some future train buff who feels this way too, but if they never see what they like, they may be a future slot car person. Variety is really what Im pushing here, not trends, or support for one brand over another, just choices in general. And do we have allot  .

There's only so much variety you can include on a smallish public display layout.  I still feel that you're best off sticking with one popular and readily available track system for overall reliability.  It's also important to keep in mind that you're supposedly NOT building this layout to suit your own personal preferences, but are building it with the viewers (potential hobbyists and customers) in mind, with the overall goal of perhaps inspiring one or more of them to jump in with both feet at some point.  The best way to do that is to show them what is most readily available and preferably what is readily available at reasonable prices.

It also helps to be able to explain and discuss alternatives to your visitors in an informed and unbiased way.  That is particularly difficult for some hobbyists who are strict devotees to one brand or to one way of doing things.  Newcomers, in particular, like to explore options.

If I was doing such a display in my local area, I would also prepare a handout that would steer folks to local sources to trains and other supplies.

I have what I would consider a large number of train and hobby shops in my area.  I would have no issue getting Lionel track product or sets/accessories.  I might be able to get a few pieces of MTH track at one store.  I could probably buy one or two pieces of Atlas rolling stock at another.  I don't think anyone has an MTH or Bachmann starter set.  If I could find one, that's probably it, just one.  

Most people can find an older Lionel starter set with tubular track on craigslist for $50-100.  Or, then can buy a brand new one with Fastrack for around $150.  

I am not to sure about the rooftop method. Introduces weather limitations. A 4' x 8' is about the minimum size for anything that would provide some inspiration. That would leave you with two 4' x 4' modules anyway for transportation and handling.

Take note of the small radius corner layout example in the Lionel module plans. 4 small corners (30" x 30")and two straights (30" x 45") provides a 5' x 8 3/4' layout. (close to the traditional 5' x 9' that really works well for O gauge). The tops are flat, so it would appear like a platform when assembled when all of the tops are covered with the same material. It provides for 048 and 036 curves, which will allow for some good sized engines.

They are very light and would fit it the back of your SUV with the seats folded down. No help needed, one person operation. (of course, help is always appreciated, but not always available)

Everything is pre-fit for FasTrack. FasTrack and FasTrack switches are very durable and reliable. You can add some switching areas for some fun and interest that would be connected at setup time. The wiring system allows for anything that you would like to run. There is plenty of room for operating accessories, buildings, etc.

The downside: You need some advanced tools to build them or enlist a carpenter friend or acquaintance to assist. The detachable leg method needs some creativity because the brackets are custom.

I am also working on a take the trains to the people setup. I have decided on the Lionel modules. This year will be a temporary layout with everything that will go on the modules. I'll have the two mainlines with Polar Express modules that will plop into the center space of the assembled modules. This winter, I'll start building the Lionel modules and transfer it all after a good test on the temporary setup.

Whatever method you choose, do it, and "take the trains to people". There are a number of club members and individuals that display publicly that post on the forum. The photos, videos and stories all confirm your observations. It makes people smile.

Have fun!

That's perfectly fine.  Go with what's available in your area.  No problem with that.

The choices I listed earlier were based on what I would use if I was going to build such a layout for display in the northeast Ohio and western Pennsylvania area.  Choices may certainly be more limited in other parts of the country.