Refilling Smoke on the VL BB

You can just turn off the smoke units with the remote and keep running for a couple minutes to cool them down, no need to power everything off.

 

You can freely mix the two smoke fluids, there shouldn't be any issues.

 

There has to be a better way. We need more design work on the smoke feature in my opinion.

 

Bob C.

smoke units, in general, are pretty frustrating in that you're trying to keep the balance of wet enough to feed the heat source but not so much as to drown it.

Also, it seems like the charring of the batting is going to happen no matter how pampered the unit. Thus, they are always going to need repacking.

 

 

Why wait to let it cool down?  I usually turn the units off, refill, and then turn them back on.  Still smoking nice ans strong.

Thanks John, you are right again.

If you put power to the track, the BB will not start up yet.

If you then turn on your LC remote and then just press a smoke stack icon, the smoke stack fan will start - you can hear it running and feel heat; but the BB will not come to life.

After that, if you toggle the whistle or push some other icon on the remote, then the BB comes to life.

 

Now I am in a quandary.

Yesterday, the stacks produced billows of smoke and then eventually thinned down.

At that time, I shut down, powered off, waited a few hours, then added small amounts of fluid to the 2 stacks - maybe less than 10 drops and shut down for the day.  Today, I get no smoke.  I can feel the heat and hear the fans from the smoke units; yet no smoke.

Now, I am heading toward adding more smoke but am hesitant - don't want to overfill.

Yes, Robert and Graz, it is frustrating - adding smoke until you get to know the quirks of the engine is a pain.  If any bettering engineering can be done, you would think a smoke reservoir would be a better way to go.  I am willing to put up with it till I know its quirks.  I have already had to send my new Lionchief B&O back to Lionel because it didn't produce smoke - don't know if I over filled or starved it.

I wait since that is what they tell you in Lionel's 'Refilling Smoke 101'.

Sinclair, do you do that with a VL Big Boy??

RickM46

Rick,

I don't own the new BB but the chatter here seems to point to the notion that this loco consumes smoke fluid faster than any before it. Thus, 10 drops might not be enough to fully saturate the cube of batting in the smoke unit.

I'll let a fellow BB owner chime in though.

 

Sinclair, 

Mike R. had mentioned that filling while the smoke unit is hot can lead to the fluid crystalizing on the resistor which can lead to reduced output - or something like that.

 

I however, find that waiting is just too time consuming so I just shut the smoke off to keep the fan from spinning and refill as needed. 

 

 

Fellas,

I bit the bullet and added more fluid using the soft plastic dropper that comes with the loco.  I added half a graduation of smoke to each stack and now, I have smoke.

What made me hesitant is the experience I had with my new Lionchief+ B&O - it is now in the hands of Lionel to get it smoking - don't know if I over or under filled it.

However, this is a good experience for knowing the quirks of the BB.

Last night, I used Megasteams micro needle dropper to add fluid - those drops are very small and only added 5 micro drops.

Today, I used the dropper that came with the loco, those drops are bigger!!

Since I only added half a graduation of smoke this time, I will add a tad more to get up to full bellows.

I also learned that you can hear the stack fans and feel heat after power to the track is added and you just press the stack icon on the remote.  Of course, if you wake up the loco, you can't hear anything but RR sounds - music to my ears.

Thanks a bunch folks, this newbie is happy again - or maybe I should get a life! LOL.

RickM46

 

I usually fill them right away, after I turn smoke off via the remote.  The temp drops fairly fast when the smoke units are shut off; and the cold fluid cools them off more.  It does not hurt to wait before filling. 

 

Don't fill them with the smoke units on; as the fluid may carbonize and form a crust between the element and the batting.  If that happens the smoke units won't run very long as the fluid won't wick properly.

Yep, the crystallizing of the fluid on the hot element is exactly what Lionel suggests you avoid. If you do wind up in that situation, Lionel said you would have to wait anywhere from 2 hours to 2-3 days for the crystals to liquify and fall into the batting.

Mike R.'s video suggests several minutes, in truth I wait for about 10-15 seconds after shutting it down and it's always been fine.  However, I agree that adding it with the smoke unit operating is a very bad idea.

 

As far as the VL-BB, or any other locomotive for that matter, before adding more fluid when I know I've added some I give a strong puff down each stack.  Many times that gets them going without adding more fluid.

 

Once the fluid has baked on a crust around the element to batting material, it won't go away.  The only fix is to repack the smoke unit with new batting.

 

So glad I saw this thread - I just add fluid to the unit when it runs low without much regard to whether the unit is on or off - and I've never had a problem. But it doesn't do to tempt providence, so I will adhere to the rules set out above.  

 

In in terms of how much to add, I think it was Alex M (but maybe it was the thread about how to get the blow-down to do a better job?) that pointed out that even when he added the recommended max drops (20), upon opening the VLBB, it was clear this was insufficient to fully saturate the batting. I find that being a little liberal has produced the best smoke effects for me. 

 

Peter

 

Yes, I always turn the unit off before adding, I just don't wait long after it's off.  I never thought of trying to add it while the fan was still on, it'd just blow all over the place.

 

And like John said, I find most times after adding fluid, I have to blow down the stack to get smoke to come up.  I'm sure that's why you didn't get smoke after adding the 10 drops.  But I find that 10 drops isn't enough, so I use the dropper provided which Mike R said was about 20 drops per line, and it smokes well.  And I always add it before a session if I'm going to run with them on because I find that it lasts longer.  The Lionel Premium Fluid evaporates quickly.

I use JT's MegaSteam, and I usually add about 2/3 of a dropper to a new dry unit.  When I see smoke production fall off, I add 1/3 of a dropper.

I follow Jon's procedure turning off the unit then refilling right away. I do it this way because I believe it is easier to keep them wet if you don't let them cool before refilling. I also like to add fluid after running before shutting down for the night for the same reason...keep em wet.. Just seems to me to absorb better.

well my 2 cents on topic.

 

at first startup of the day I add 20 drops both stacks on BB.

after that I add 10-15 drops when smoke drops off. I also add 10 drops after shut down for the night all seems well for me.

 

I also have smoke units set to low they smoke well and I can actually determine smoke whistle is working as higher settings it gets lost in the stack smoke.

 

I will say this BB is a thirsty one and makes a drunk look like a piker.

 

as to smoke pipette it resides as all the others do in the box shipped in I use a needle tip applicator that I bought a few years back works very well gets it right in where it should be.

The vision Bigboy drinks more fluid then any other engine I have owned ..

You'd also be surprised how much the fluid evaporates/dries up over night. I thought I over filled my Cab Forward big time, but when I took it apart the next day, the batting was completely dry. So now when I run my engines after sitting a day or several, I'll add 10 drops before I even power it up. They burn through that fluid fast, they take a lot of fluid, and sitting dries it up.

Don't let the smoke unit run when the batting is dry. Once it gets charred, it greatly reduces the volume of smoke output.

Wow,

I am greatly appreciative of the advice!  Never expected this many comments but all good!

Now for my procedure:

I think I will use either the MegaSteam dropper or the pipette that comes with the BB.  Seems like 1/3 of a MegaSteam dropper when smoke wanes will be good; or the Lionel pipette using a volume between the lines.

I will fill at the beginning of a run with the units cold instead of at night after shutdown.

I have three 2 oz bottles of Lionel Premium to use up and six 2 oz bottles of MegaSteam to use (I like Cinnamon Roll the best and will order a larger bottle shortly).

Thanks fellas!!

RickM46

 

Of course, it has more smoke units than any other engine you've owned!

 

 

The VL BB can make short work of that small stash of smoke fluid, sounds like a good day's running will do the trick!

 

Yep, you are right John, I am ordering more Megasteam now.

 

As a final comment regarding adding fluid:

Last night, just as the Lionel Premium smoke was waning, I shut down for the evening.

This morning, I started her up and no smoke.  I think what was left evaporated over night while the unit cooled down; laidoffsick noticed that too.  So, filling up too far ahead may not be a good idea.

So, this morning I added Megasteam to the stacks when they were cold.

WOW, what a difference using Megasteam in smoke production.

Thanks to all for the info.

RickM46

That's why I load it right after turning it off for the evening while still warm. IMO the wicking/batting/stuffing.. whatever gets harder as it cools and doesn't absorb as well. When adding while still warm the fluid is soaked up and while some does evaporate overnight it doesn't dry out. I have been surprised at the amount of smoke when first starting up after a night of running and a nite-cap or a one for the road refill so to speak...

So I watched the Lionel tutorial video on smoke units. The guy in the video says first: fill the pipette to the line, which is approx 20 drops. He then says that Lionel service doesn't do this. They use a syringe style dispenser (looks like the same one I have from JT) and put the syringe right down into the batting and squeeze.  The problem is, the syringe style dispenser doesn't allow you to measure out 20 (or any other number of) drops.  I suppose I could take an entire afternoon and use trial and error to try to add markings to the syringe dispenser to at least measure volume being dispensed....

PJB,

I will use the pipette to transfer 20 drops or so to the empty syringe device then fill the loco with it.

 

 

not all smoke units can be filled directly so what I do is put needle right at opening of stack sqeeze the bottle just enough for drops to come out and count each one.

 

it takes practice but can be done as to meniscus in stack I have had the pipette create the same thing nothing is fool proof!

 

which is why I have a hair dye plastic bottle it just literally makes the issue go away and also eliminates the liquid on ones lips if to close or a slight overfilling taste good not so much.

 

by far the needle point applicators are the best for this application try it after a few times the pipette will reside in a spare parts box.

Great info!

Stacks and whistle working great on the BB using the Lionel pipette; haven't used my Megasteam syringe on the BB.

But, I lost track of filling the blow down unit and have overfilled it.

With the blow down hood off, I get good smoke from the fill hole; with the hood on, nothing from the blow down nozzles.

Any ideas??

One of these days, I'll get this smoke fill stuff figured out.

Thanks,

RickM46

Actually, it's probably not overfilled if you get good smoke out of the fill hole.  Give it a strong puff down the hole, it's prone to loading up in the long tubes to the blowdown exhaust.  You can also just open up the fill lid and blowdown for a minute or two and flush some of the fluid out.

I over filled mine once as well.  No smoke comes out when it is over filled, I got a gurgling sound.  I kept running it hoping to burn it off, but I think I just eventually let it sit and evaporate away.  If you get smoke out of the fill, then you'll get smoke out of the blow down ports.  Like stated in another thread, it comes out at such a velocity that it's really too thin to see.  I can never see it against my light colored carpet.  I have to make sure there is a dark colored item near the track and after a bit of holding the button down I can see it start to drift up from the floor.

Sinclair... remember that dye bottle I talked about in a post above! it not only blows puff of air to relieve meniscus!

 

it will also suck out the excess smoke fluid.

 

I'm old but sly like a fox.

Hard to suck fluid out of this one, here's the VL-BB blowdown smoke unit.

 

 

       
       


Isn't this the point the guy in the Lionel video made?  Regardless if whether you're using the pipette or syringe, if you put smoke fluid drops at top of stack all you're doing is allowing the fluid to trickle down the walls of the unit and also possibly onto the heating element, creating opportunity for build-up and problems - hence, the reason to basically inject the fluid right into the batting with the syringe?

Peter

Thanks for the info; I will give that a try.

The picture of the smoke unit that you submitted is priceless; it shows that you cannot reach the batting with a syringe.

I think I am going to have to keep a log for my locos for when and how much I have added fluid.

Yes, the folks that keep insisting you have to inject directly into the wick material aren't living in the modern world.  Many diesels and steamers have stack manifolds that make that impossible without disassembly.

 

well the lionel S-3 and santé fe 3751 legacy daylight 484 you sure can inject directly.

 

 the S-3 has a offset but a needle point will inject directly.

 

the BB far as I know are all on a manifold feed to smoke unit but might be wrong on the steam whistle.

 

as to the blow down that is another issue I think just leave the fill cover off works very well that way LOL!

 

I have to ask why on BB are the manifolds needed? space constraints what say you lionel repair folks??

 

 

 

       
       


Well, I'm the guy who had no regard for any of this till I saw this thread. So watching the Lionel video was an attempt at trying to understand what "correct" is in order to at least have a good basis for what one should be doing. Gotta say, my MTH diesels require you to put fluid through a grate. And like someone else said, not sure you can apply the "inject into batten" rule when looking at the blowdown on the VLBB.  Oh well...

The manifolds are necessary to position stuff like whistle steam where the actual whistle is, the blowdown smoke unit couldn't be under the panel it would appear either.  You might be able to get the needle point into the main stacks, not sure, but it'll be a tight fit.

 

 

It isn’t always convenient to reach your locomotive to puff a little air down the stack.  I use a small hand held dust blower to clear the stack.  Mine is a fancy one from a watchmakers supply house but Micromark has one (pictured) for $5.50.  You could also use an ear syringe which you would find in the super market or drug store.

 

Use it gently, you don't want to blow the smoke fluid all over the inside of the loco.

 

Good idea with the puffer, you're right about not being able to reach it at times.