Request for assistance with Lionel Diesel engine pulling power

Are the wheels slipping, or are the motors stalling?

ADCX Rob posted:

Are the wheels slipping, or are the motors stalling?

Rob,

The wheels are not slipping.  WRT the motors stalling, I think they are but I am not truly sure.  I loaded it with cars and put the throttle to the point where the locomotive hesitated going up the grade but still slowly advanced. I looked under the engine with a flashlight at the gears. For both sets of gears, they stopped moving and then restarted a brief moment later.  On my other diesel locomotives the gears turned continuously when similarly loaded with the throttle adjusted to gradual advancement up the incline.  

Alex 

Are both motors running? That engine should pull a decent load.

Jim 1939 posted:

Are both motors running? That engine should pull a decent load.

Jim,

Yes, both motors are running.  I just confirmed this by lifting one end of the engine off the track while leaving the other end on the track.  Each motor will pull the engine forward when the other end is held off the track.  For some reason this engine is much less powerful than my other engines.  I greased the gears before running it this year (same as the other engines). 

Alex

Thanks for the questions and troubleshooting thoughts so far.  The only other thing I noticed with the layout and this locomotive is it more sensitive than most of my other locomotives to voltage drop or connection problems.  I had trouble with about half of my engines dying out and/or restarting at about the track midpoint in my layout on initial test runs in early December.  First I checked all Fastrack connections which improved performance but I still had some trouble with a couple of the engines. My 1974 Hudson was the most finicky but this UP locomotive was a close second. I added a second power track at the midpoint (ensuring hot and ground were aligned correctly for both power tracks and the CW-80). This seemed to fix the issue at the midpoint for all of my engines.  The Hudson still dies and restarts at one point on the track but it is not by the incline or the midpoint.  The UP 1988 doesn't die and restart anywhere nor do any of the other engines.   I only mention this as it is all I can think of that also seemed to be different about this engine. 

these ready to run sets are not meant to pull very many cars,  let alone up any grade.

bigdodgetrain posted:

these ready to run sets are not meant to pull very many cars,  let alone up any grade.

I get that as a possible issue and would be good with closing the thread with that answer if I only had one RTR or my other RTR locomotives performed similarly.  Odd thing is most of my other engines are RTR engines (or other cheaper engines) and they have no problem with a lot more cars and the same grade.  That is what got me scratching my head and led me to ask for assistance here.  Is there any sort of overloading or misuse that could reduce capability of the engines?  I've treated my engines well but the UP was used when I got it.  Or were there any years where Lionel made junkier can motors for their lower end locomotives?  From underneath (and without pulling anything off) this UP loco looks very similar to the newer NS locomotive and 1980's Erie Lackawanna (picture of all three below).  They all have similar looking dual can motors; however, the EL and NS have plenty of pulling ability to spare with more cars attached going up the same grade that the UP cannot manage with a smaller number of cars.  

I would comment that the engines with can motors in the trucks have always been very weak for me compared to other styles, but since all three you have pictured are the same style, that doesn't seem to be your problem.  Have you checked to see if anything is binding in the axels or gears?  perhaps turn the wheels with your hand and see if the problem engine is any harder to turn than the others?  

As another note, I've had the solder post on one of these types of motors come lose from the plastic base of the motor and provide a weak connection, you may want to look where the wires are attached and make sure there isn't any damage or a lose connection there.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

I would comment that the engines with can motors in the trucks have always been very weak for me compared to other styles, but since all three you have pictured are the same style, that doesn't seem to be your problem.  Have you checked to see if anything is binding in the axels or gears?  perhaps turn the wheels with your hand and see if the problem engine is any harder to turn than the others?  

As another note, I've had the solder post on one of these types of motors come lose from the plastic base of the motor and provide a weak connection, you may want to look where the wires are attached and make sure there isn't any damage or a lose connection there.  

JGL

John,

Thanks for reading through all of my posts and the recommendations for additional troubleshooting.  I hadn't thought to make those comparisons. I'll take a look in the morning and let you know what I find.  Need to shut down for the night.  

Alex

Axles and gears move smoothly - no appreciable difference from the other two diesels with can motors in the trucks. 

WRT connections, each of the diesels looks a little different WRT wires running to the can motors.  Here is a closeup of the UP.  I didn't see anything clearly disconnected or frayed but don't really know what I'm doing. Reluctant to mess with it too much as it does run now and has some limited use.

The issue is probably the reverse unit. The engines lose power when the reverse units start to go bad... the easiest way to check is to hard-wire the motors to a FWB rectifier powered by the track and re-test on your grade.

Rob,

Thanks.  I'll look into that as a little project.  Is there a how to guide or video somewhere for novices messing with can motors and rectifiers?  I did some searching but struck out. 

Alex

If you want to try a new reversing unit, you can still get one from Dallee for around $40, I think - no sound. There will be instructions. The motor wiring is pretty obvious, anyway - AC from the track, DC to the motors. Open it up and sit for a while looking and tracing. Get to know your loco(s).

I don't have many units with this drive train (similar ones were - and are - used by K-line and RMT), but I have always found them to be strong pullers, though they run too fast if you are not careful (series wiring would help); I have seen units of this type slip due to light weight (add some), but I have never seen one bog down under normal use. Don't fall for the "train set loco" excuse.

BTW, the spot where your Hudson "dies and restarts" is not normal, you know. There is a circuit problem somewhere, and not in the loco.

Does the engine lose power or does the motor stall out.. What does the headlight do?

D500 posted:

If you want to try a new reversing unit, you can still get one from Dallee for around $40, I think - no sound. There will be instructions. The motor wiring is pretty obvious, anyway - AC from the track, DC to the motors. Open it up and sit for a while looking and tracing. Get to know your loco(s).

I don't have many units with this drive train (similar ones were - and are - used by K-line and RMT), but I have always found them to be strong pullers, though they run too fast if you are not careful (series wiring would help); I have seen units of this type slip due to light weight (add some), but I have never seen one bog down under normal use. Don't fall for the "train set loco" excuse.

BTW, the spot where your Hudson "dies and restarts" is not normal, you know. There is a circuit problem somewhere, and not in the loco.

 

Thanks for the info on the reversing unit.

WRT the Hudson, I was digging around on this forum earlier today and found a link to fixing continuity problems in Fastrack by bending center pins slightly. I did that to the track segments in area where the Hudson was having trouble.  All good to go now.  Appreciating all the help this forum brings. 

Gregg posted:

Does the engine lose power or does the motor stall out.. What does the headlight do?

The light stays on constantly. No flickering.  The wheels just stop shortly and then pull a little and then stop again - light on constantly the whole time. 

Sounds more & more like the reverse unit starting to go bad - the power is not getting through to the motors - the headlight should dim with the motors stalled.

Thank you to everyone for all of the troubleshooting help.  I'm really impressed with how quickly the forum members responded and the depth of the assistance.  I learned some new things and will definitely tinker with the UP loco a little more after the holidays.  Need to decide if I want to throw any more  $'s at it or move on.  Hope everyone has a great holiday season and a Happy New Year. 

Alex

One more possibility Alex...  Since you bought the loco used, it's possible that a prior owner rewired the motors in series.  This is a great modification for locos with truck-mounted motors because it slows them down and permits smoother starts.  However, if wired in series, when one motor starts to slip, it hogs all the current and the 2nd motor is unable to help.

Look at how your loco's motors are wired.  If they're not already wired in series, you could try that (it would reduce the loco's unwanted speed variation.)  You should even consider implementing this "Active Voltage Sharing" circuit designed by a Forum member, Dale Manquen:

https://ogrforum.com/t...ly=44088307741488859

Adding a little ballast in the fuel tank will also add pulling power.  Your last option is to do what a real RR would, and add a 2nd loco as a mountain helper.  These train set locos doublehead very well.  Good luck!

The reverse unit can go when the motors go too.  These inexpensive can motors go bad.  If one has deteriorated you may not get the torque necessary anymore, and it may become a drag on the other.  The series winding is a good check also.

Since you have 3, swapping in a different reverse unit is an easy test to help isolate.  But I would look at replacing motors.   G