Restoration Verses Original Valuation

quote:

Does restoring a pre-war tinplate train set significantly hurt the value of the restored train set?

It depends on the condition before the set was restored.
You will get a lot of opposing opinions on your question.
IMHO, a restored train should be valued somewhere around the cost of the same item in good-very good condition in the most common color scheme.

Lots of sellers refinish trains in rare/unusual paint schemes, and try to sell them for a premium.

Some collectors wouldn't look twice at a restored train, others accept them.
If I am buying a piece for my collection, I will not look at restored pieces, I'd rather have a beat up original.
If I am buying a piece just to play around with, restored is OK.

FWIW, that's a little less than what the MSRP is on MTH/Lionel Corp reproduction.  The advantage here is that under the paint, the restored train still an original.

Rusty

Hi Rusty & CW,

 I agree with both of your opinions.

 Like Rusty said, even though a train set may be restored,(as long as it is a professional job), you still have an original train underneath the new paint).

 CW, I also agree with your opinion on the pricing of a restored item and repainting a train set with a scarce, much sought after color. Your opinion is much of the same advice as what I read in "The Collectors Guide To Prewar Lionel Trains".  This is a very controversial subject I agree.

 What is your opinions on the MTH/Lionel Reproductions?

 This seller really has done nice work in the past, and this set looks to be no exception.

 Thanks,

 John

I am a runner, not a collector so restored is acceptable though original is preferred. For value, I look at an excellent restoration as worth the price of Good in the Greenberg books. Only my opinion.

Steve

I think it depends on what your looking for;A collectable,a runner? Why not buy a brand new set with or without electronics? 

quote:

 What is your opinions on the MTH/Lionel Reproductions?

I have absolutely no interest.

For me, two big parts of collecting are researching the items of interest, and then the hunt.

IMHO, these aspects aren't there when purchasing reproductions.

Hi  Steve,

 I feel the same way.

 I don't think there is a better feeling than to see a train set that is maybe 80 to 100+ years old running around the track to give it some exercise , especially tin plate trains,(It's Magic!). To know that this long ago, there was another individual doing the same thing and getting the same feeling.

 I also receive great satisfaction just seeing these trains on static display when they are not running.

 My problem is room, I have none, and can only run my trains on the Christmas platform under the tree at Christmas Time and for a month or two after when I have to give back our living room. LOL.

Thanks,

John

Buying with a view to possible re-sale is a tough one. I figure that if I will pay the asking price, then there should be a distinct possibility that another person will if I decide to sell.

Meanwhile, I know I will get great pleasure from ownership, and for me that is the bottom line.

At the end of the day, fiscally, anything is only worth what some-one is willing to pay.

I've restored hundreds of trains in my day. Commonly accepted values are the excellent condition value of the most common color. I've never heard of a train restored to excellent being worth good value. No one would bother restoring trains if that were true. As far as MTH reproductions, I'll pass. I'd rather have a professionally restored original before I bought a knock off. I always say, if it wasn't made when JLC was milling about the corporation, I don't want it. 

Gandy

Sometimes definitely yes: sometimes no.  What was this set worth before restoration?  What is it worth now?  Was it worth it?  Is worth or value measured just in $ ?  

I have heard that for years. If a train is restored it has a value of good. It makes sense good for the most common color.

I would put in one caveat. A premium can be added for an excellent restoration. Most restorations are done terrible. Even if the guy paints well many times the prep work is not done. Wavy roofs bends in metal etc.

For $710.00 I would buy a new set or a resale modern reproduction.

Watch some of these auctions to get an idea of price. MTH made 710 cars in Blue Comet colors which to many are better proportioned for a 263E.

Glad to see this topic being discussed- I'm completely new to trains and have started disassembling some old Hornby things for what I hope will be a good restoration. The rust was in thick blotches all over the lithography, and numerous tabs have snapped off at the slightest touch. Having replaced them with araldite and some tinplate strips glued to the inside for reinforcement, I'm now worried that I've ruined the authenticity and value of the original, but then again, it won't be too visible and seems the only solution if this wagon is to be assembled and run again. A bit frustrated now...

Bani

The TCA's opinion is that anything that is repainted or restored now matter how great it looks can only have the grading of Good.  Like it or not that is the Train Collectors's attitude.  Your opinion may vary but for value or resale buyer beware.

Paul Edgar

Past President

TCA

the only way i would consider a restoration is if i could sell it for at least as much i paid for it.  i only have two standard gauge freight cars in this category and frankly, now i even regret buying those.

to me reproductions have no (and will never have) collector value.  i don't doubt some people enjoy them, but in my opinion, they look hideously new.  i would rate the desirability of a nice restoration well above a reproduction.

Well, since this is already restored, I think the restore vs. leave it alone side of the discussion is moot. It just doesn't matter. The restoration has already been done, and it's just a determination of whether you want a restored one, new one, or original.

My opinion is that they are all going to be about the same price, give or take $100. The TCA used to make a blanket statement that a restored piece should not be valued any higher than it's original counterpart in VG or C-6 condition. They have since adopted "restored" grading standards, but make no mention of monetary value for each grade, as that is between buyer and seller.

That being said, it seems that the general rule for restored pieces, that they are worth maybe half to two thirds of an original in excellent condition, which is about the value of a C-6 piece. There are some exceptions, I am sure, but I'd say that's pretty much the going philosophy. Most collectors of original equipment would only consider restorations (or reproductions) only when the cost of a good original is extremely high, or the piece is so rare that it becomes a challenge to find one in any condition.

As for this blue comet, the train is sufficiently common that you could probably find an original in decent condition for relatively the same money. However, if you ever performed a restoration, you would understand why the person doing the work is asking that kind of money. It takes a lot to do it correctly.

Which is another point you have to consider. Is the set done correctly? Does it look like the original? Are there parts painted that shouldn't be, like drawbar pins, etc? Are the colors correct with respect to the originals? All this needs factored in. If the blues are not correct, then it's obviously not worth what a properly painted one is worth, etc.

Also, when considering a restoration, do not find yourself paying more for a train painted in a hard to find color. There are a lot of restorations of 636 City of Denvers done in Girard green, and advertised as "rare". While the originals are extremely rare, it makes no difference when restoring whether you use green paints or yellow and brown. It becomes a personal taste issue, not a collectibility or rareness issue.

At the price point you are looking at, you also have the MTH reproductions. Nice finish, etc, new, warranty. If you like the "new car" look, then maybe these are for you. They won't hold the value of even a C-6 original, but then again, a restoration probably won't be much better. I would have to say that a properly serviced older train, in any cosmetic condition would probably be easier to use, work on, and be more reliable than than the newer reproductions. Read some of the reviews in this forum on modern tinplate and make a decision.

Just examine your needs and wants and go from there. It's personal, ask for insight, but you'll be most happy if the decision you make is made by you and  is not made by the consensus of or majority opinion of forum members.

Bani, I have also found myself getting into a well-intentioned restoration and not be able to find my way back out, it just keeps getting worse.  Part of the learning curve I think, and also just a hazard that comes with the territory.  Not everything is fixable.

The reason I posted those pictures above is to make this point:  any restoration without question "ruins the authenticity and value of the original".  I think you have to accept this.  The question is, if the train is a pile of junk that nobody wants in its authentic original state, what value are you removing?  By restoring, are you adding value - never the value of an original, but the value of a train you can use and enjoy on your layout?

John, thank you, This one came out okay, I was running it on the layout yesterday and enjoying them.  Still have to do windows and lights.  I think that is my criteria for whether a restoration should be done or not.  If the alternative is the dumpster, then I'm free to restore! 

Paul, as past president you presumably know what you're talking about, but as I read the TCA grading guidelines for restored trains, R-3 is "Good", and then there are grades R-4 and R-5, both of which are a higher grade than "Good".  The better known TCA standards for non-restored trains, C-1 through C10, are not applicable to restored trains, although you often see them incorrectly applied.  From the TCA standards:

R-5 Professional Grade—Restored in all aspects of finish and detail as when manufactured: Finished in correct type of paint, color, texture and gloss. All wiring exactly matches the original. All trim in correct finish or plating. Virtually identical to the original. No surface imperfections in the metal work. No wear or evidence of use present. Authentic in all aspects.

R-4 Very Good—Restored to a general high standard: However, noticeable differences exist particularly with respect to the color, finish, and texture of paint when compared to an original piece.

R-3 Good—A restored piece that has signs of play wear with minor dents and scratches.

R-2 Fair—A non-professional restoration: Color, texture and finish clearly different from the original. Other items, such as non-authentic wiring are also evident.

R-1 Poor—A poorly constructed restoration in all respects: May be a candidate for restoration. Includes dents or rust pitting under the finish.

Hojack makes a couple valuable points. Sometimes, an item is so far gone that restoration can only improve the piece, and also, sometimes, some things cannot be repaired or restored, or even worth the attempt.

The TCA has developed the restored standards, and I would like clarification as to why the grading goes only to R5, as opposed to C-10 for original pieces. The restored ratings should be read through. There are plenty examples of different restoration levels. 

In my opinion (An opinion only), most nice restorations you find are typically over restored, looking very much like new, modern reproduction tinplate, including the ones that I have done in the past.

Master restorers, can produce restorations that look as originals do, complete with paint runs, etc. Those are amazing restorations, and I feel much more difficult to perform than the over-restored look.

I do have a new concern that with the TCA now providing a separate grading scale for the restored items, the restored side of the hobby may migrate towards restoration type competitions, which will end up driving restored values up to approach the value of the C-7 and better originals, and although it takes a huge amount of talent, it can't replace the passage of time, and survival in high grade condition of an original piece.

I am glad that Paul has stated the accurate grading of Good per TCA for restored items. I stand corrected, as I had thought the max comparable grading was VG or roughly C-6. I must be a few years behind the times.