Restoring a Lionel # 10 Locomotive - painting questions.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

The Lionel #10 in my workshop was a mess when I got it so I'm doing a complete restoration.  This is my first full restoration project.  I'll post photos of the whole project, but today I'm thinking only about painting the body.

I've done a lot of work on paint removal and reducing the body to shiny tinplate.  My question is how far do I need to go.  Here are a few photos - not as good as I would liek - just now learning to work with photos on my first iPad.

 

 The roof is the part of the body where I've done the most work - stripping and a lot of sanding.  The last pass will be with 3000 and then 5000 grit Emery paper.  Look closely at the roof and the hood around the pantograph mounting and you'll see some small dot like blemishes that are refusing to go away.  My question is will the promer and paint cover these or will they show through.  Or ahve I done more than enough work on this.  I plan to use one coat of primer and a coat of Mojave from Train enamels.

Looks at the sides in the photos and you'll see small residues of paint that still are resisting removal.  They are at a point where I can make it feel smooth with Emery paper, but again, are they likely to show.

Think of this as a general question about how far do I need to go with body prep work before painting.  Hoping to hear from group members with experience in this area.

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Joe Gozzo

You can usually chip out the small paint chips in dents with a small jewelers screwdriver.

You certainly are off to a good start as far as stripping....no need to use that a fine of a paper to abate the metal....finish your metal prep with 400 or 600....fillling primer will fill in the scratches and the small blemishes in the metal....my concern would be the dents in the roof....they kinda stick out like a sore thumb in your pictures....not sure by the pics if they are “innies” or “outies” ....in other words, do the dents poke up or are they pushed in....standing up a straight edge on the roof, and looking straight across at the gap between the straight edge and the roof will reveal dents....if your looking for that picture perfect smooth finish, that roof may require some filler and block sanding to get it laser straight....another trick to reveal dents is to use 400 grit paper on a sanding block and sand in one direction only....high spots, or outties, will be revealed by shinny scratches that look like little shinny islands...low spots, or innies, won’t have any scratches, cause the block will pass over the low spot with out touching it....it’ll all depend on how far you want to go....as far as some of the old paint spots, scuffing them out with 600 should make the job easier....just try keeping your sand scratches going in one direction...not all over the place....hope that helps...it’s a lot to take in..........Pat

Everything you do before paint is going to count. Primer and paint do not cover defects. Small pock marks and dings should be filled in with automobile glazing putty. Larger dents need Bondo. Do the bondo first as it must be done on bare metal. Then prime and use the glazing putty. In good light eyeball the shell from every angle and look for defects. Address them now or they will show later. When ready, prime the whole shell doing the inside first, allow to dry then do the outside. Allow to dry 24 hours. If your painting area is cold, use a hair dryer to warm the metal up. Paint the inside first and allow to dry 24 hours then do the outside.

Tin

mlaughlinnyc posted:

The Lionel #10 in my workshop was a mess when I got it so I'm doing a complete restoration.  This is my first full restoration project.  I'll post photos of the whole project, but today I'm thinking only about painting the body.

I've done a lot of work on paint removal and reducing the body to shiny tinplate.  My question is how far do I need to go.  Here are a few photos - not as good as I would liek - just now learning to work with photos on my first iPad.

 

 The roof is the part of the body where I've done the most work - stripping and a lot of sanding.  The last pass will be with 3000 and then 5000 grit Emery paper.  Look closely at the roof and the hood around the pantograph mounting and you'll see some small dot like blemishes that are refusing to go away.  My question is will the promer and paint cover these or will they show through.  Or ahve I done more than enough work on this.  I plan to use one coat of primer and a coat of Mojave from Train enamels.

Looks at the sides in the photos and you'll see small residues of paint that still are resisting removal.  They are at a point where I can make it feel smooth with Emery paper, but again, are they likely to show.

Think of this as a general question about how far do I need to go with body prep work before painting.  Hoping to hear from group members with experience in this area.

Get a can of high fill primer and spray the whole engine. Then do your fine sanding. Will get a better finish and save a lot of time. The high fill primer fills in the small swirls. And it's much easier to sand.

Your top coat will also help in covering the fine marks if there are any left.

I would be more worried about dings and dents. That's where you need to focus if there are any.

Sold under a number of brands, they all seem to be about the same. You should be able to find it in any auto store.

Jim

Exactly what Jim said. Except I would add a few more suggestions. 

If you are concerned about dents, again fill them or metal work them out first. The primer will fill the scratches.

I would soak in white vinegar for about 24 hours before your first primer coat. This will provide a good etchant for the primer to bit into. Then bake the primer on a low heat for 120 deg.

let the primer flash for about a 2 day period before the color coat. 

Sand the sand-able primer to allow for a smooth surface.

Wipe the surface down with a tack cloth  and make sure the surface is free from contaminants.

Paint in a room temperature environment, free from dust and dirt and fully with a respirator and a well ventilated area.

I would use a enamel paint for your final color coat. It has a more durable finish and requires no additional sanding and additional layers of paint. Enamel will last many years with out fading. 

Use full strokes of painting going across the entire model with out stopping in the middle.

Red is the hardest to paint, you may need two coats.

Good luck and show us photos of your progression.

Thanks for all of that input.  It's a bit overwhelming - I'll try to absorb it one paragraph at a time.  But first here are two photos that show the whole locomotive in its current form (leaving out the new MEW wheels).

I'll begin with the primer, maybe the next step unless I decide to experiment with Bondo and glazing putty.  My former NYC colleague talks about filler primer and Jiom mentions high fill primer.  Are these the same thing ?  I have a can from Train enamels labeled 100 Una Prime Gray.  Will that do ?  If not, where do I find the filling primer ?

In regard to Bondo and glazing puty.  Are those something that I would find at Autozone ?

I've done some work on those corner dents today.  They were pushed in, like might happen  if the locomtive struck some object when dropped on the floor.  First I bent gently up from underneath wti a long nosed pliers.  The I reduced the sharpness of the edges with a find file.  Now they're not as prominent, but my fingers tell me there is still a very slight depression.  Here are photos of what it looks like now.

So my next decision is do I try the putty, or do I start with the primer and one coat of paint - but only on the roof so that I can easily strip and start again if I don't like the look of it.

All of the above answers are good. My auto collision Guy recommends an Etching Primer Like Dupli-color primer found in auto stores or Rust-oleum Self Etching Primer. They both work good for me. After the final finish coat I bake all the parts in a 200 degree oven on a cookie sheet covered with aluminum foil for 30 minutes...This gives a nice smooth finish.

Gene - That is some nice work there!

As far as the metal working goes, those are some stubborn dents. My colleague and I back in high school worked on cars together. He would metal work a dent with a torch and cold water rag that would make that class A surface look like new. He even had the metal pic tools, and the penny trick was his favorite

I was more of the lead / plastic filler. Not sure if lead filling is used anymore but I could fill a dent less than a 1/16 of inch you could never read.  Sand, prime, fill, sand and prime and fill... sand and prime... you could never read it even with a magnet.

Together we were unstoppable. 

Fast forward today - painting prewar is a lot more challenging.  The metal is not as high a quality as body metal and some have been exposed to the same elements!

Key is getting the rust out. I would bead blast or soda blast all the black areas that look like corrosion.

As far as dents try to work them to the B side of the surface (below the surface), if you are going use fill and add the plastic filler to build the surface back to the A side. Use a high quality filler so it does not dry out and crack. 

99 percent of your time is going to be metal and surface prep.  Excellence is only achieved by saying its not good enough yet.

Joe,

Bondo ,I use, is glazing and spot putty(red) ,very easy to work with,when sanding ,I wet sand .Also when sanding ,you don t need to go that high ,I usually end up with a 1200 grit .Primer as mentioned above I use a red etching primer or auto primer ,and again 1200 sand ,let dry  .Tack  cloth after sanding.Using the red primer will also help with the top coat (red) covering evenly. As mentioned above ,bake in oven I do not,I use a heat lamp{ final coat only} 3-4 feet above item painted.Joe you are on your way ,no matter what technique you choose ,all a matter of what works for you.

Rich B

J Daddy says " Excellence is only achieved by saying its not good enough yet. ", and that is the essence of my problem.  What is good enough.  For my personal collection good enough is a car or locomotive that looks enough like what I would have had on my layout around 1950 assuming reasonable care and no major damaging incidents.  But I may do a few as clsoe to perfect as I can get just for the fun of it.

But with items that I'm eventually going to sell, there's an economic dimension.  I clean, repair and sell a few over 200 items per year.  Say that in X hours I can do two restorations that I could expect to sell for $200 each.  That's 0.5 X  hours for each.  Now suppose that I spend 0.75 x hours on one of those, raising the standard for "good enough".  Then I would have to get 50 % more, or $300, for that engine to justify the time.

So I need to figure where to draw the line on value added to the final product.  How musch more is typical buyer of a restored locomotive going to pay for a close to perfect surface as compared with what I've already done.  I know this is a matter of possible widely differing opinions, but let's hear those opinions.

And thanks for all the great input from members of this group.  I'm learning a lot of good stuff.

Another question that just came to mind.  Hoe essential to the finish is baking at a high temperature, like 200 degrees.  Will keeping it a warm dry place for several days give an equally good finish.

Given my wife's sensitivity to fumes and the size of our apartment, there is no way I'm going to use the oven for paint baking.  I'm not in aposition to spend several hundred dollars for an oven to put in the basement.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Another question that just came to mind.  Hoe essential to the finish is baking at a high temperature, like 200 degrees.  Will keeping it a warm dry place for several days give an equally good finish.

Given my wife's sensitivity to fumes and the size of our apartment, there is no way I'm going to use the oven for paint baking.  I'm not in aposition to spend several hundred dollars for an oven to put in the basement.

You can air cure it, you don’t have to bake it, baking an enamel finish does make the enamel flow out and smooth some of the orange peel look that rattle cans can leave, baking also hardens the enamel, but again...it’s not absolutely necessary, it is an extra step at perfecting an enamel finish......Pat

I saw this in one of the magazines: you can make your own oven using a cardboard box lined with aluminum foil and a 100W light bulb. My wife told me I will NEVER put smelly spray paint into HER oven. The funny thing was that I was restoring HER Standard Gauge passenger cars.

*quietly whispering under my breath*
"This isn't O gauge......."

artyoung posted:

I saw this in one of the magazines: you can make your own oven using a cardboard box lined with aluminum foil and a 100W light bulb. My wife told me I will NEVER put smelly spray paint into HER oven. The funny thing was that I was restoring HER Standard Gauge passenger cars.

I
 think that gives me a solution.  I just need to find a very cheap lamp without a shade and build the right shape cardboard/aluminum box around it

I had been thinking about a cheap toaster oven, but I like the box idea better because the maximum heat is limited by the volume of the box and size of bulb.  I can experiment to find the right combination to get 150-200 degrees for a few hours without the risk of it getting too hot.

From the various comments I've read, it sounds like anywhere between 150 and 200 would be a good baking range.  Is that correct ?

Yes, definitely go the 100w bulb route.  I restored a 517 caboose last summer.  The ambient temp was higher because it was summertime but I used a bulb in a carboard box and let it "bake" for at least 3 days between coats.  I wasn't dealing with the dents you're dealing with but the finish came out very glossy.  Straight Rust-Oleum.  George S. should weigh in soon.  I did everything he said.