Restoring a Lionel PRR Prewar Steam Switcher & All Things Related to Keeping Them Running! Spring 2024

My 227 will be a bit of a challenge as the lettering is pretty good but you can see the paint damage around the cab edges.  Plus it will need e unit work as well.  I also have a 203 that needs marker lights and has some serious cab roof damage that I was thinking about using a piece of rolled brass much like you did on your switcher. I'll definitely give that a try now. Your switcher threads are a great source of info both in what you have done and what others have offered as far as information.  Thanks for posting all of it!

And by the way, you can't ever have too many switchers!

 

that looks great Tom.Better to try it out on something before you do the actual thing.

Dennis my 226E tender needs re lettered...I'll volunteer it for trial and error if you'd be interested.

Steamer posted:

that looks great Tom.Better to try it out on something before you do the actual thing.

Dennis my 226E tender needs re lettered...I'll volunteer it for trial and error if you'd be interested.

You coming to visit me or am I coming to visit you then?   I've not tried them yet, I'm sure I'd need some learnin first!  Seriously though, I give it a shot sometime.

  You know I'm having fun with a modern litho printer asking if block litho work can be done for him 

   It"s like a Richard Petty asking a Pinewood Derby Racer to run Daytona for him.  

Dennis I have the feeling that if I came to your place I had better bring the truck, cause it would be loaded on the return trip....

Hi Tom, can you, or anyone else, help me with advice on how to get the front marker lights out without damaging them. In order to change the hand rails on the side of the boiler the marker lights need to be removed. I have tried a few things, but have not pushed it as I do want to damage the little castings. I would also prefer not to damage the black paint.  Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, David Johnston

Hi David,

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), I never had that particular problem. Every one where I needed to replace the handrails was already missing the marker lights. The best I could suggest is to have one person securely hold the locomotive down with a towel and then you, with a pair of pliers, try to twist each one out. If one/both break you should be able to drill them out like my friend and I had to do for the broken off stanchions for the locomotive project that started this thread.

Any chance you could just save the existing handrails by bending them back into shape with some needle-nose pliers (hold with one and re-shape with the other) and avoid removing the marker lights? You should be able to slide two-ply thick paper towels under the handrails while you you try to re-shape them. 

Please post whichever way you go on this. 

Tom 

  

The last time I had this problem I bent the handrail to install it.   I was never able to rebend the handrail to get that nice smooth machine made radius across the top of the boiler. Next time this comes up I will will get more aggressive with the marker lights. Zinc grows with age and my guess is there may be no way to get some marker (class) lights out without destroying them. 

Would it work to bend it around a piece of wood or something to get the radius?  A baseball bat comes to mind  Then you just have to be accurate in where you put the 90 degree bends to send the rail back to the cab...  If nothing else, this should help you get a uniform bend for the curved portion.  You could also probably make a jig to bend it perfect each time,  but how often would you use the jig lol...

David Johnston posted:

Hi Tom, can you, or anyone else, help me with advice on how to get the front marker lights out without damaging them. In order to change the hand rails on the side of the boiler the marker lights need to be removed. I have tried a few things, but have not pushed it as I do want to damage the little castings. I would also prefer not to damage the black paint.  Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, David Johnston

This may not work, but is there access to the inside of the boiler such that you can push them out from the inside?  I'm wondering if their mounting hole is a through hole to the inside of the boiler? Worth a shot to check it out anyway.  Kind of like pushing a bell out of a postwar steamer shell.

I have looked at that. The holes do not go through. They are so close to the side of the boiler (smoke box) that if drilled from the top i doubt that the holes would end up inside. 

great thread, lots of good information here! When using these stamps it is KEY to dab about 2-3 times before applying to the side of the cab. You can use any paper but I found cardstock paper to work best. Most of Lionels originals were not super bold if you really look at them, most of the times the factory stamps had seperations in the letters anyway. Biggest mistake when using these is guys using TOO MUCH ink.

Thanks STEVIN. Yes, I think we noticed that the third dab seemed to create the best results. 

Tom 

More on the 227 prewar 0-6-0 switchers, except this one happens to be a 230.  I recently acquired this loco and after cleaning old grease out of the gear box it was making growling noise and sometimes locking up when turning the wheels by hand. Closer inspection revealed that the idler gears, the ones on the side of the frame between the drivers, were loose on their stub shafts and were cocking and rubbing agains the edge of the drive wheels. At times the gears would jam against the edge of the wheels locking the mechanism.  Below is a video of this problem taken on another locomotive. At that time I swapped out the frame with another engine which was not going to run any more. 

 

Next thing to do was to pull the wheels off in order to remove the two idler gears. I used the Lionel ST-311 wheel puller, which worked well as there is lots of room between the wheels and the frame. The center gear side wheel was pulled to avoid having to remove the worm wheel in the middle of the center axle. Normally the best practice is to remove the non gear side wheels, which is what was done on the outboard wheels.

With the wheels removed the bore of the gears and the diameter of the stub shafts could be measured. The normal ID of the gear bore is 0.160".  These gears measured to be 0.165". The stub shafts should be 0.156" in diameter.  These measured at 0.153". The design clearance between the gear and the shaft is 0.004".  On this loco it clearance was 0.012". Three times what it should be.  I also measured the axles and bearings.  The axles were right on the new axle dimension and the bearings were only a few thousandths oversized, so I let them go.  

I found that I had new stub shafts and gears, so the plan was to change both.  Fortunately when Lionel design this loco, they put holes in the frame across from these shafts, making it easy to use a small pin punch to knock out the loose shafts.

These are the worn out stub shafts and gears after remove.

I found two different looking stub shafts in my parts supply. I was able to determine that the upper stub shaft is a modern Lionel part from the 1990 remake of the 227.  The lower part is an original part from 1939. I chose to use the lower, original, stub shaft parts because it has a slighter smaller serrations on the shaft that would make it easier to install.  In addition to being pressed in I used Loctite 640 sleeve retainer to provide some added strength and try and prevent it from coming loose in the future. First I cleaned the hole with acetone.

Then I applied Loctite SF-7649 primer. The small end of the stub shaft and the inside of the hole were then coated with the 640 material.

The pin was tapped in with a hammer and it went in square and secure. At this point I cleaned up the area around the shaft and left it to harden for 24 hours. 

This shows the new gears on the new stub shafts ready to have the wheels reinstalled. Putting the wheels on is the tricky part of the repair. First the center wheel has to go on the gear side, which means I have to press the wheel on while getting the new gears to mesh with the gear on the back of the wheel. The gear on the wheel is zinc and could be easily damaged by the steel idler gears if I tried to press them together while the teeth were misaligned. 

After the center wheel was pressed on the two axles with the geared wheels can be slid into the bearings.  A side rod is used to get the gear mesh correct for the two outboard wheels. First one outboard wheel is installed with the correct gear engagement so the side rod fits on properly. Then the wheel is held in place while it is put onto the wheel press and the non geared wheel is pressed on the other side. This is repeated for the third wheel set.

This photo shows the third wheel set in the press ready to have the non geared side wheel pressed on. The wheel cups are designed specifically for this locomotive and they get the proper quartering on the non geared side. 

Here is the project all finished running on the test stand. Next step is to rewire the loco and rework the tender. A couple of days work to go and another 0-6-0 will be back in service. 

David,

  Great pictures and great videos.

  Thanks for your post. Yes, watch out for those idler gears as they may be a little scarce. She runs great...you should be quite proud and happy. 

  You mentioned the wheel cups...When you have time, can you show a little more on how they work? 

Tom 

I am no expert on pressing wheels, but I have pressed a number of them on various locomotives. There are sort of three categories of pressing. First is diesel and electric wheels. They do not have side rods so there is no issue with quartering. Second is steam locos without gears on the wheels, like 726 and 671. These require quartering, but no gears on the wheels to requirement alignment. The third is steam locomotives with gearing on the wheels. There have to have the gears properly aligned first and then quartered side to side to get the side rods to fit.

Quarting is done because real steam locomotives were set up so the piston on one side would be at the end of its travel when the piston on the other side was mid stroke. This was done to be sure a loco would not get stuck with both pistons at the end of their stroke but not quite to the point where steam was about to be admitted to drive the piston back the other way. It also resulted in a smoother application of power. To do this the crank pins on opposite sides of the locomotive are 90 degrees apart. Lionel carried this practice over into most of their steam locomotives.

The usual practice on a Lionel locomotive is to remove and repress the wheel on the opposite end of the axle of any wheels with gears on then. This way the gear mesh can be adjusted so the crank pins are all lined up on one side, then the non geared wheels can be pressed on the other side using the wheel cups to get the quartering right on both sides. If the quartering is not done correctly the crank pins will be out of alignment and the side rods will not go on. 

The wheel cups are designed so the wheel fits inside them.  There is a hole in the cup for the crank pin on older locos or a pin for newer locos that use shoulder screws for crank pins.  There is a line scribed on the outside of the wheel cup that is lined up when the cup is mounted in the press.  When these scribed lines are lined up, the hole or pin that locates the crank pins are rotated 90 degrees apart.  This keeps the wheels in the proper alignment when the wheel is being pressed on the axle. It is important not to turn the loco over when pressing wheels or the wheels will be pressed on with the 90 rotation in opposite directions. 

The one thing that makes this a little tricky is that many locos have a worm gear pressed on in the middle of one axle. It takes a little practice to worm gear centered and the gears properly meshed at the same time. 

In this picture on the right side the two lines that have to be lined up when the cups are installed in the press can be seen.

In this photo the two holes for the crank pins that line up the wheels up can be seen. These cups are made specifically for the 227 family of engines. They are not in the Hobby Horse catalog, but if you talk to Carl he will make a set.  Jeff Kane, the Train Tender does have these cups on his tool list.  There is an insert provided with these cups what will fit into the crank pin hole to allow these cups to be used with wheels with flush crank pin holes design for use with a shoulder screw. I am not sure what loco it fits, but it might be the 1656 family. 

Hobby Horse, the maker of most wheel pressing tools in recent years, has a green covered book on how to use the cups in the press.  Later they put out an orange covered book with the Lionel name on it when they were supplying pressing equipment to Lionel for their Service Stations. The Orange covered book probably has a little better description of how wheel pressing is done.  But neither book has step by step instructions. Some trial and error will be required at first. This is not as bad as it sounds since these days we have Loctite products that fix a loose wheel that has been pressed on and off to many times. 

The change from projecting crank pins to flush crank pins used with shoulder screws appears to be the result of Lionel going from zinc die cast wheels to sintered steel wheels.  This change was required for Magnitraction.  The sintered steel process does not allow for the fine detail that die cast zinc does, so the extended crank pins had to go.  This change was also the reason that the detailed Baldwin disc drivers and open spokes were discontinued.

David Johnston posted:

The one thing that makes this a little tricky is that many locos have a worm gear pressed on in the middle of one axle. It takes a little practice to worm gear centered and the gears properly meshed at the same time. 

 

 

David,

  It sounds like all you need is three hands! Thanks for the thorough explanation. 

Tom 

David,

  Here are the pictures of my #2230T tender that I promised you. Hope it helps with your project. Sorry for the delay. Not sure why I previous owner had installed a piece of wood underneath...

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Tom 

Looks like the piece of wood was used to support a 3rd rail pick-up.

Chuck, 

  It's interesting that you said that because the prior owner had this 2230T tender and a #231 prewar switcher that I purchased separately both on eBay. The #231 locomotive had 2 holes drilled through the diecast running boards along the boiler, one hole on each side of the boiler, each one exactly across from the other. I never ran an outside third rail set-up, but I always wondered if the locomotive at one time had those holes drilled for such an outside third rail set-up. 

Tom 

Hi Tom,  thanks for posting the photos of the 2230T tender. Very basic as I would have expected. I do not under stand how the 227 family was to run on outside third rail. Two shoes are needed on each side and two on the engine are too close together.  The 700 e tender is set up for outside third shoes, but not the 227. Another mystery to work on.   The wire that is missing in your tender is one that should come from the uncoupling coil on the rear truck coupler and go forward to a plug on left side of the tender. That would plug into the jack on the left side of the locos brush plate.  A wire then goes forward from the brush plate to the coil on the front coupler. When the accessory shoe on the rear tender truck is energized both the front and rear coupler operate. 

You ask about the connections on the brush plate shown in an earlier photo and I told you it was connected just like I connected real traction motors to test run them. I was running one today and snapped a picture, but the picture cut off the battery jumper cables that were connected three of leads together.  Oh well.  In the picture the motor is running on 80 VDC and drawing about 15 amps  it is turning about 800 rpm.  We ran it for about 4 hours to be sure the new bearings would not run hot when the motor was reinstalled in the truck.  Everything worked fine.  

That would be my guess, someone in it's past tried to outside 3rd rail it.

If it was on a one direction layout, the need for O3r shoes on both sides isn't there. The first O3r engine I recall running could only travel counter clockwise. It used round brass bars nested in coil springs to rub the "fence" (outer rail), no shoes. There was one bar on the loco, one on the tender; that's it The clip on the rear of the tender; is that original? It looks like a vintage sparkplug wire's crimp connector. Which is funny because I used a slightly different one on one my cars in a pinch as well.

I have never been to this forum before - seems like the 701 and its brothers belongs in the 3-rail scale section.  What do I know?  But I am partial to this particular model.  Allow me to show you mine - 2-railed - and a scratch version done for OGR when Myron ran the place.  He didn't like it - no smoke, and no sound!  If I ever find another 1990s version I shall two-rail it too.  Did not know about the quartering cups above - great idea!  These are better proportioned than the newer B6sb with incorrect cab and U shaped boiler.  Keep on hammering - nice work!

This is what Lionel sold as an outside third rail shoe for the 701, which would work for all the 227 family of locos. Because of the difference in the wheels, I assume that Lionel intended all the 227 family to run on three rail tubular track with a center rail, so outside third rail would be unnecessary  

I installed the shoe on my 231 just to see how it fit. I have never had one on a loco before. It is a one screw installation and it went on easily. The one thing I noted is that the third rail shoe base is close to the frame in some locations. A piece of insulating paper would probably be advisable if I were going to run it on outside third rail. 

 

Bob, Imo, it doesn't pay to lock one's self into one catagory. There is something to be learned in every offshoot of model RRs even if you'll never do it exactly that way yourself. I've learned a lot on HO/N/G/Z focused sites. For the time period and cars available when these came out, tinplate, though confusing today, isn't "wrong" either.

Bob2, I have a set of what I think are either 227 or 701 wheels which have been insulated for two rail operation. I will never have any use for them. Keep me in mind if you decide to two rail another 0-6-0. 

David Johnston

BOB2,

Welcome to our topic.

Glad you stumbled upon us. I used to worry about which categories to post topics under and then I found this blurb from a TCA article entitled "Scale or Tinplate," by Joseph Lechner:

The tubular track used for O gauge, S gauge and standard gauge trains is still made of tinplate today. Postwar trains that run on those tracks are called tinplate too, although nearly all of them are made of die-cast metal and plastic.

So, I run my (prewar) locomotives on tinplate track, so it seemed fair to post this under tinplate, but that just me.

If you like that sort of thing...categorizing, terms and origins of terms, you might like an article I wrote in the Tinplate Times about the term "Semi-scale." 

http://www.tinplatetimes.com/T...iScale/semiscale.htm 

In writing the article, I had contacted Bruce Greenberg and also Joseph Lechner to see if they knew of the origin of the term "Semi-scale." Both were kind enough to respond and said they were not aware. 

I like your locomotives. I have one of the 1989 re-releases and I once met Myron and still have the OGR screwdrivers he gave me. 

Glad you like the old versions better than the new ones, too. 

Tom 

David Johnston posted:

This is what Lionel sold as an outside third rail shoe for the 701, which would work for all the 227 family of locos. Because of the difference in the wheels, I assume that Lionel intended all the 227 family to run on three rail tubular track with a center rail, so outside third rail would be unnecessary  

I installed the shoe on my 231 just to see how it fit. I have never had one on a loco before. It is a one screw installation and it went on easily. The one thing I noted is that the third rail shoe base is close to the frame in some locations. A piece of insulating paper would probably be advisable if I were going to run it on outside third rail. 

 

David,

  Thanks for posting that. I've never seen what Lionel's third rail shoe for the 701 looked like. Very interesting that it easily fits the "non-scale" switchers easily, but that goes to show you how interchangeable (for most parts) they were. Not to be judgmental, but I think I would prefer the inside third rail than the outside version. 

Tom 

It isn't that I look down upon tinplate trains - it is just that, while I admire them in the same way that I admire ship and airplane models, I do not spend much time looking at either.

But I do have 700-series cars and locomotives, and consider them good enough to run on full scale 2-rail track.  I just stumbled here because I saw the title over in the list of new posts.  I will go anywhere to see a writeup like this!

Who knows? I might build a scratch model around such a set of B6 drivers.  The Lionel rendition of those drivers seems more accurate than most.

When I was working on the motor of the 230 I wrote about above, I noticed that the commutator had what looked to be an unusually wide brush track. 

Actually what I was looking at was the brush tubes rubbing on the commutator.  At the commutator end of this motor Lionel used a collar slid over the armature shaft to handle the thrust.  This is part 400E-119.  This part is wide at one and narrow at the other. The wide end goes against the commutator and the narrow end against the brush plate. It does not seem like the best design.  

The brush plate is a fiber material and in this case the narrow end had cut into the fiber material allowing the armature to move toward the brush tubes. The brush tubes can be adjusted further away from the commutator, but this would have increased the free lateral for the armature. I decided a better plan would be to add a shim to the armature shaft to prevent the commutator from moving toward the brush tubes. Lionel washer 600-129 seem to work well to reduce the lateral movement. It is 0.218" OD, 0.135" ID and 0.025" thick. It is made from Zxtel 101, a nylon like material. I found that there are also some washers sold with this same part number that do not fit. There are either a poor reproduction or a modern Lionel part, which has been redesigned, but using the same part number. 

I installed the additional washer against the commutator. Otherwise I may have taken too much lateral out of the system.  This is what it looked like ready to install back in the motor. 

I reassembled the motor and checked to be sure the reduced lateral did not result in the armature being tight. It did not, but if had I could have sanded the washer a little to reduce the thickness. The motor is now all back together and runs well. 

I finished up rewiring the 230 tonight and got it to run. It runs well, like most of the 227 family. 

This particular locomotive had the early flush jacks for the connections to the tender. They go with the large plugs.

The only difference between this locomotive and the 227/228 is the number on the boiler front. All the differences between the 227/228 and the 230/231 are in the tender. 

David Johnston posted:

 

I reassembled the motor and checked to be sure the reduced lateral did not result in the armature being tight. It did not, but if had I could have sanded the washer a little to reduce the thickness. The motor is now all back together and runs well. 

So clean, it almost sparkles! Very nice David.

Tom

David Johnston posted:

 

The only difference between this locomotive and the 227/228 is the number on the boiler front. All the differences between the 227/228 and the 230/231 are in the tender. 

Beautiful! Congratulations on rescuing another prewar switcher. 

One additional note, originally, the 227 & 230 had lower height couplers, 228 and 231 had higher height couplers. 

Tom 

Tom, your comments above got me wondering about my "230", so I did some more research. The locomotive has the "230" number plate on the front and the tender frame is rubber stamped 2230, but without a B or T.  There is no signs of any repainting on either the loco or tender. According to Greenberg's guide, your comments and everything I know about these locos it should have low couplers.  But both the engine and tender have high couplers. Again according to Greensberg guide, the article by Donald Hagar, and Lionel parts list, the brush plate should have only one plug on it.  This loco has two. Earlier I said there was no difference between the 227/228 and 230/231 locos.  This is true for my loco, but it would not be true for a properly assembled 230. These referenced documents indicate that a 230 does not have a plug for the front coupler and the front coupler is manually operated.  The front coupler on my loco has a solenoid to operate it and it is wired back to the brush plate.  

I have no idea what I have, but I do not think it is 230, or at least not anymore. 

HA! Welcome to the club, my friend. These locomotives have been around almost 80 years now, so who knows how many times they have changed hands, changed parts and been altered in some way. That is sort of the membership dues...

Nonetheless, they are still my favorite locomotive and probably one of your favorites, too. I'm sure you will still enjoy yours for many years to come. 

Tom 

 

bob2 posted:

It isn't that I look down upon tinplate trains - it is just that, while I admire them in the same way that I admire ship and airplane models, I do not spend much time looking at either.

But I do have 700-series cars and locomotives, and consider them good enough to run on full scale 2-rail track.  I just stumbled here because I saw the title over in the list of new posts.  I will go anywhere to see a writeup like this!

Who knows? I might build a scratch model around such a set of B6 drivers.  The Lionel rendition of those drivers seems more accurate than most.

Bob2, I dug out the six wheels that are two railed and I thought might have come off a 227 type locomotive. After a closer look it is clear that they are not Lionel wheels, but are still interesting. They are magnetic, probably cast iron.  Three wheels are insulated, two of them are on the axles. The third axle is not there. One wheel has a cam on it, do not know what that is for. None have gears on them and they do not have the Lionel style cam that drives the valve gear. They are sitting in front of a 227 and you can see they do not have the fine detail of the Lionel die cast zinc wheels. Let me know if you are interested in them. 

 

MNCW posted:

David Johnston posted:

 

I reassembled the motor and checked to be sure the reduced lateral did not result in the armature being tight. It did not, but if had I could have sanded the washer a little to reduce the thickness. The motor is now all back together and runs well. 

So clean, it almost sparkles! Very nice David.

Tom

Actually, if you look close, the plate has a mirror polish on it. You can see the shaft in the reflection.

David - thanks for digging those out.  They might be worth trying an eBay sale.  I have plenty of cast iron in that size, and a bunch of lost wax brass, already machined.  I do prefer the cast iron for most 0-6-0s, but the Lionel Zamac castings are really accurate for the B6.

A friend sent a Consolidation with poorly machined drivers.  I sort of cleaned them up - I will try to post a photo.  Thanks again.

David Johnston posted:

 

So David, how exactly did you obtain the mirror-like finish on that commutator? Some sort of lathe?

George