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A week or so ago I had the opportunity of acquire a PostWar Super O set.

Just glancing at it, I saw  616 Santa Fe switcher, a 6130 Santa Fe work caboose, a 6812 track maintenance car and a 6822 night crew searchlight car.

I thought I had set 2570 from 1961......

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However.......that is where the similarity stopped......

Other boxed components include the 6827 Flat with power shovel (not the 6828 Flat with construction crane), 6416 Boat Loader, and the 6511 Allis Chalmers car ( and not the 6736 Mackinac hopper).

Something was strange....luckily, I have the worn and torn set box that yielded 2 important clues:

ZV2xc6s3Tp+lz2M0535gBQNSVacjw9QIqrYt%LZxiFig

kdRHkdC8SEK+0VCxm2bA4gaSxJlonNQs2jp7%2Yy5ZSw

This is likely an uncatalogued set made for Sears!

I opened the Sears catalog book next.....

ZTtu1TNjRHu%4MlmPniPWQfullsizeoutput_55c3

.....but, it only shows up to Set number 9473.....

My last hope was John Schmid's book....

cHPZKpcpRhGIudKobZIxHw

I was successful! From pp 384-85.

This set was Sears' diesel-powered Super O offering for 1961. It did not appear in the Sears catalog.

The project will be to restore it to "running condition". The set condition ranges from Poor to Very Good.  Most of the freight cars will need replacement parts. For example, all of the cabin cruisers of the Boat Loader are in pieces....The engine will need a cleaning.

Updates will be forthcoming.....

Peter

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While on the subject..... Did making these special uncatalogued sets really boost sales for the seller? Were consumers in 1961 shopping around through Lionel and assorted department store catalogs and shelves to realize this or that set included more or different cars? With this set as an example, did parents and/or kids notice the D&M hopper is gone, but there’s a boat loader and Allas Chambers car? Did the retail price reflect the extra cars?

Sam Jumper posted:

While on the subject..... Did making these special uncatalogued sets really boost sales for the seller? Were consumers in 1961 shopping around through Lionel and assorted department store catalogs and shelves to realize this or that set included more or different cars? With this set as an example, did parents and/or kids notice the D&M hopper is gone, but there’s a boat loader and Allas Chambers car? Did the retail price reflect the extra cars?

Since the 30s Lionel sought to reward their big accounts  by giving them "value added" sets at the same price point as sets in the regular catalog.

When I look at the 2 sets......the catalog set has 4 freight cars and the work caboose $49.95.

The Sears uncatalogued set has 5 comparable freight cars with the work caboose and is also at $49.95.  I read Lionel and Sears" intentions this way: the Allis-Chalmers car is a swap for the hopper car. The power shovel car is swapped out for the crane car......and the new Boat Loader, with 4 little removable boats, is a bonus.......I would have wanted that one......

As an 8 year old in 1961, those boats would be floating in a sink within the hour! 

Peter

BTW, it may have worked a little. The price tag shows that Mr Roebuck was still working there at the time.......

Last edited by Putnam Division

  I didn't have the engine, but had those cars. Likey Gramps bought the set for the engine and I got left overs.

 Our local Sears had their own full time techs, plus Lionel service techs from Lionel (Mt.Clem.) for the holidays in the 60s-70s. The stock on hand there was large enough for someone to throw together a set of thier own for the same price, or swap out a car out of a set for an "equal or lesser" car. There were boxes,.and Lionel letterhead for the sets too. Slightly different from the Sears/Lionel; and also different from normal sets boxes which differed from Sears sets. They also had a Lionel ink stamp around Christmas, though I can't recall exactly what was stamped. I recall the two bands for " X - " and a blank band before....??....I think numbers and some letters (? A W T x ?)

Those boats wouldn't always float 🛥️🛥️      🛥️ 😵                                                           .                                                         🛥️

....because my submarine kept sinking them

 There is a 6-***** can-motor in truck, Coast Guard set with rescue boat that is a more modern styled boat W/2-AA battery op. can motor 🚤 😋.  I almost can't wait for it to get hot enough for the old "so hot you gotta take a cold bath" excuse 😂 

Putnam Division posted:

A week or so ago I had the opportunity of acquire a PostWar Super O set.

Just glancing at it, I saw  616 Santa Fe switcher, a 6130 Santa Fe work caboose, a 6812 track maintenance car and a 6822 night crew searchlight car.

I thought I had set 2570 from 1961......

fullsizeoutput_55c2

However.......that is where the similarity stopped......

 

Peter

Peter, your catalog picture reminded me of the last Lionel set my parent gave me for Christmas.  I think it was 1958, 11-years after "Santa" brought me the first Lionel train set.

IMG_0087

Ron

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PRRronbh posted:
Putnam Division posted:

A week or so ago I had the opportunity of acquire a PostWar Super O set.

Just glancing at it, I saw  616 Santa Fe switcher, a 6130 Santa Fe work caboose, a 6812 track maintenance car and a 6822 night crew searchlight car.

I thought I had set 2570 from 1961......

fullsizeoutput_55c2

However.......that is where the similarity stopped......

 

Peter

Peter, your catalog picture reminded me of the last Lionel set my parent gave me for Christmas.  I think it was 1958, 11-years after "Santa" brought me the first Lionel train set.

IMG_0087

Ron

Peter- love the set. Can't wait to see it running around your layout. I have fond memories of waiting for the "BIG WISH BOOK" to come out each year. I probably wore out the pages in each and every catalogue every year.

Ron- not to hijack Peter's thread but I just got a similar set from a co-worker who was moving and clearing out stuff he didn't want any more. Any info you can give me about it would be appreciated.

Thanks

2019-03-25 17.15.242019-03-25 17.15.44

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RSJB18 posted:
PRRronbh posted:
Putnam Division posted:

A week or so ago I had the opportunity of acquire a PostWar Super O set.

Just glancing at it, I saw  616 Santa Fe switcher, a 6130 Santa Fe work caboose, a 6812 track maintenance car and a 6822 night crew searchlight car.

I thought I had set 2570 from 1961......

fullsizeoutput_55c2

However.......that is where the similarity stopped......

 

Peter

Peter, your catalog picture reminded me of the last Lionel set my parent gave me for Christmas.  I think it was 1958, 11-years after "Santa" brought me the first Lionel train set.

IMG_0087

Ron

Peter- love the set. Can't wait to see it running around your layout. I have fond memories of waiting for the "BIG WISH BOOK" to come out each year. I probably wore out the pages in each and every catalogue every year.

Ron- not to hijack Peter's thread but I just got a similar set from a co-worker who was moving and clearing out stuff he didn't want any more. Any info you can give me about it would be appreciated.

Thanks

2019-03-25 17.15.242019-03-25 17.15.44

I’m already upstairs in bed (4AM comes quickly).....but I will check the set number in the Schmid book tomorrow.

Peter

Putnam Division posted:

A week or so ago I had the opportunity of acquire a PostWar Super O set.

Just glancing at it, I saw  616 Santa Fe switcher, a 6130 Santa Fe work caboose, a 6812 track maintenance car and a 6822 night crew searchlight car.

I thought I had set 2570 from 1961......

fullsizeoutput_55c2

However.......that is where the similarity stopped......

Other boxed components include the 6827 Flat with power shovel (not the 6828 Flat with construction crane), 6416 Boat Loader, and the 6511 Allis Chalmers car ( and not the 6736 Mackinac hopper).

Something was strange....luckily, I have the worn and torn set box that yielded 2 important clues:

ZV2xc6s3Tp+lz2M0535gBQNSVacjw9QIqrYt%LZxiFig

kdRHkdC8SEK+0VCxm2bA4gaSxJlonNQs2jp7%2Yy5ZSw

This is likely an uncatalogued set made for Sears!

I opened the Sears catalog book next.....

ZTtu1TNjRHu%4MlmPniPWQfullsizeoutput_55c3

.....but, it only shows up to Set number 9473.....

My last hope was John Schmid's book....

cHPZKpcpRhGIudKobZIxHw

I was successful! From pp 384-85.

This set was Sears' diesel-powered Super O offering for 1961. It did not appear in the Sears catalog.

The project will be to restore it to "running condition". The set condition ranges from Poor to Very Good.  Most of the freight cars will need replacement parts. For example, all of the cabin cruisers of the Boat Loader are in pieces....The engine will need a cleaning.

Updates will be forthcoming.....

Peter

I recently obtain the sears outfit that is shown in the catalog with the Santa-fe A&B units. mine is in rough shape thou. and I even packed it up until I can spend more time with it. I'm in the middle of turning my garage into a train room and workshop. It will give me 14' x 16' for layout area. 8' x 16' for shop and steps into the main part of the house. ( there's a outline of a window there which will become a door. ) should only be 2 or 3 steps . 

I have all of the pieces but some I'm going to have to rebuy as there to far gone, like the 3665 as the insides is missing as is the roof. 3419 needs a new helicopter,rest I have. 

I wonder how many hours I spent looking at the Sears wish book. I looked at trains quite a bit, but other toys also. Back in the 60's, Sears allowed customers to order toys from the wish book into August of the following year. My Sears store, in Florence, Alabama had a Lionel display layout of some sort in the early 60's during the Christmas season. I was very young, so I don't remember much about it. I don't know if it was a real Lionel display layout or if it was something Sears employees built in-house.  I remember me and some other boys were "playing" with it, and one of them reached inside a tunnel and drew out a two dome Sunoco tank car. I guess the train may have derailed. I do not remember there being any sales people around supervising us either. After that, there was an HO layout that I never saw ran but was a static display. 

 

RSJB18 posted:

PRRronbh posted:
Putnam Division posted:

A week or so ago I had the opportunity of acquire a PostWar Super O set.

Just glancing at it, I saw  616 Santa Fe switcher, a 6130 Santa Fe work caboose, a 6812 track maintenance car and a 6822 night crew searchlight car.

I thought I had set 2570 from 1961......

fullsizeoutput_55c2

However.......that is where the similarity stopped......

 

Peter

Peter, your catalog picture reminded me of the last Lionel set my parent gave me for Christmas.  I think it was 1958, 11-years after "Santa" brought me the first Lionel train set.

IMG_0087

Ron

Peter- love the set. Can't wait to see it running around your layout. I have fond memories of waiting for the "BIG WISH BOOK" to come out each year. I probably wore out the pages in each and every catalogue every year.

Ron- not to hijack Peter's thread but I just got a similar set from a co-worker who was moving and clearing out stuff he didn't want any more. Any info you can give me about it would be appreciated.

Thanks

2019-03-25 17.15.242019-03-25 17.15.44

You set and my set are two different sets.  So cannot provide any info.  I see Peter is going to see if he can.

Ron

As promised last night.....pp 308-309 of the Schmid book.

A 1961 set made for the department store Jordan Marsh....4686 sets ordered.

The 6045-50 Cities Service car is notable insofar that it was only seen in 9 different promotional sets.

Unfortunately, I don't have author's permission to post pictures of the pages here.

I love running trains and working on the layout....I love working and sharing the hobby with members of my modular group.......but, I really get a kick out of historical work like this, and sharing it!

Peter

Last edited by Putnam Division
RSJB18 posted:

Thanks Peter. I will pass the info along to my co worker. I had never seen the Cities Service tanker either. Guess I got a slightly rare piece. The green tub below the set box contained this set, which belonged to his Father-in-Law. Not a bad deal.

Bob

2019-03-25 17.16.092019-03-27 16.20.06

Bob, that prewar set may be the gem of the whole deal.  While the Jordan Marsh promotional set is neat in its own right, that prewar 752e looks to be in great shape.  Here is what I found on Dakota Paul's site:

"...Prewar Lionel "O" gauge City of Portland Union Pacific trains - the rare 3-car Set - Set No. 758E from 1934-36. The set consists of the aluminum 752E engine, a No. 753 coach, and the No. 754 observation car. Two vestibules.... "

http://www.dakotapaul.com/items/showitem.asp?iid=4990

 

I am not a prewar expert by any means, but I like to play one on the internet I would be interested to see a thread on that one to see what the real experts know about it.  Thanks for sharing!

Last edited by JD2035RR
JD2035RR posted:
RSJB18 posted:

Thanks Peter. I will pass the info along to my co worker. I had never seen the Cities Service tanker either. Guess I got a slightly rare piece. The green tub below the set box contained this set, which belonged to his Father-in-Law. Not a bad deal.

Bob

 

 

Bob.....(you probably know this already)  there was another Cities Service tank car, too.....the Cities Service tank car #6465 was a regular production item that was new in the 1960 catalog......

Peter

Last edited by Putnam Division

Peter, As far as the set box is concerned, with some careful work, it can be made fairly presentable.  As Chuck mentioned about the tape, the use of a hair dryer will eventually loosen the adhesive.  Just work on one piece at a time, and use a pair of tweezers, to start peeling the tape slowly.  The was an older article written in CTT magazine, dealing with restoring Set Boxes.  Some tips may sound silly, but they will work.  Where you have some tears of the outer layer of paper, you can use Elmer’s white glue to reattach to the heavier cardboard.  Where there is bends or creases in the flaps, etc., he suggests using a regular Iron, and then placing something heavy (Old book) on top, to get it back in shape.  It’s worth the effort, if you try it.  I have to see if I can find what issue the article was in.  

Trying to find a decent replacement box is a struggle, at best, especially when it comes to Promo Sets, like yours.  Nice find on the Set!!

I've never seen the Mac hopper in person; I kinda want one.

 Lots of green tankers, though I never saw one City Service gas station, or even a photo of one. I think I traded mine to Gramps for a Gulf orange single dome.

Have you watched Erol Flynn in Four's a Crowd Bob? 

Now you just need that scale Hudson..... and garden layout with butler of course.

I'm requesting a heads up on that streamiler thread too. I couldn't have been happier for you... or more jealous

The only thing I can add is I think the flat box type was called a "gift box" or "display box" and the X- was usually uncataloged, LSA/space, or a specially ordered set / set with an approved substitution.  The stamp our Sears had an X but that old guy couldn't be bribed to use it incorrectly. I saw it offered .."No!"    (Sears was close enough to be a "daily" playground, under a mile away.)

TeleDoc posted:

Peter, As far as the set box is concerned, with some careful work, it can be made fairly presentable.  As Chuck mentioned about the tape, the use of a hair dryer will eventually loosen the adhesive.  Just work on one piece at a time, and use a pair of tweezers, to start peeling the tape slowly.  The was an older article written in CTT magazine, dealing with restoring Set Boxes.  Some tips may sound silly, but they will work.  Where you have some tears of the outer layer of paper, you can use Elmer’s white glue to reattach to the heavier cardboard.  Where there is bends or creases in the flaps, etc., he suggests using a regular Iron, and then placing something heavy (Old book) on top, to get it back in shape.  It’s worth the effort, if you try it.  I have to see if I can find what issue the article was in.  

Trying to find a decent replacement box is a struggle, at best, especially when it comes to Promo Sets, like yours.  Nice find on the Set!!

Interesting tip. I have a Lionel Monopoly Set with duct tape on the front of the box. I'll try this. Thanx!

TeleDoc posted:

Peter, I located the Back Issue from CTT, , “How to restore old train boxes”, which deals strictly with Set/Outfit Boxes.  October 2005, written by Jack Willer.  I have that issue, but it’s buried somewhere, where I can’t find at the moment.  It’s an interesting article.

Great......I will look it up this weekend......great tip!

Peter

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